Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If it is a safety concern...something we DQ for...then it is a safety concern. It needs to be mentioned, one way or another. Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, why? We provide rulebookls to members one way or the other, online or hardcopy, why do we need to repeat what is already in the rulebook? Now for a Level 1 match, yeah put me in coach as you will always have new folks who do not know the rules. At Level 2 and above, why do we need to tell folks to not break the 180, or sweep their hand, or shoot a round over the berm, or any of the other multitude of things that can get you DQ'd? Putting helmet on at this time. Really? It's not about the rules. It's about somebody going home with an extra hole in them!! If we observe something that has become a safety issue (which we DQ for)...something that is overlooked but is happening to those that aren't readily aware of it...it needs mentioned. If not, you can take the timer and I'll go home. We aren't issuing DQ's because of competitive equity. We issue them because there are legit safety concerns involved. I would think that if it is a safety issue of such importance that it needs to be brought to the shooters attention then it should be fixed and it is no longer a safety issue. Shooters want freestyle, that includes their actions. After all they control every aspect of their actions. When we set up draws on the 180 we fail the shooter. When we set targets at the 180 we fail the shooter. When we make the shooter get into unsafe positions, we fail the shooter. Putting bandaids on the failure of the staff by warning them of a safety issue we caused, is the easy way out, IMO. +1 I don't need the rule book read to me at make ready. While I generally agree with Gary -- and ideally would like to see the problem solved before first shot -- I can imagine encountering a grey area scenario, where I might approve a reminder. Not my idea of a real solution -- but I haven't seen everything yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I would think that if it is a safety issue of such importance that it needs to be brought to the shooters attention then it should be fixed and it is no longer a safety issue. Shooters want freestyle, that includes their actions. After all they control every aspect of their actions. When we set up draws on the 180 we fail the shooter. When we set targets at the 180 we fail the shooter. When we make the shooter get into unsafe positions, we fail the shooter. Putting bandaids on the failure of the staff by warning them of a safety issue we caused, is the easy way out, IMO. We've been to a lot of the same matches, Gary. You know as well as I do that not everything gets caught. Potential 180 traps can show up on day 2, when somebody shoots the stage in a new/different way than imagined (etc). Putting this on the staff is an easy way out of the discussion, IMO. I don't want to have to DQ the shooter, nor throw the stage out...if I can give a heads-up in the briefing and make some aware of a safety hurdle. It's the right thing to do. It is legal. And, I don't see it as being inequitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 +1 I don't need the rule book read to me at make ready. LOL...ironically...how about the thread title then? The topic isn't about what happens at "make ready." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I would think that if it is a safety issue of such importance that it needs to be brought to the shooters attention then it should be fixed and it is no longer a safety issue. Shooters want freestyle, that includes their actions. After all they control every aspect of their actions. When we set up draws on the 180 we fail the shooter. When we set targets at the 180 we fail the shooter. When we make the shooter get into unsafe positions, we fail the shooter. Putting bandaids on the failure of the staff by warning them of a safety issue we caused, is the easy way out, IMO. We've been to a lot of the same matches, Gary. You know as well as I do that no everything gets caught. Potential 180 traps can show up on day 2, when somebody shoots the stage in a new/different way than imagined (etc). Putting this on the staff is an easy way out of the discussion, IMO. I don't want to have to DQ the shooter, nor throw the stage out...if I can give a heads-up in the briefing and make some aware of a safety hurdle. It's the right thing to do. It is legal. And, I don't see it as being inequitable. Flex, I'm with you - but I want to know how to deal with the competitor that busts the 180 to show you the trap, you send him home (you have to right?), and then you further warn other competitors not to do what he did. As the competitor that showed you the problem - I can't state "hey, you told them to worry about it, but not me - it's not fair. I would have been more careful there HAD you warned me before hand." I believe the rules support a high hearty, "sorry brother, thems the brakes" but there IS an issue with that - no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Do you adjust a popper you know is getting heavy, or wait until it fails to fall for a shooter, and then let them try their luck at calibration? I think there used to be a story in the Club Manual that had a window as an example of something to look out for when building stages. The shooters would open the board that covered the window and start shooting the array, then the window would fall back and crack them in the head. You could toss that stage. You could let somebody with a 1.5 pound trigger get whacked in the head and see what happens. Or, you could simply mention to be aware of the Louis XIV window Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) <Devil's Advocate> Although the question was phrased primarily where the warning was there to prevent a safety violation, the warning may provide some inequity where it gives shooters a hint that something is doable. For example, last shooter in Squad 1 figures to engage T7 from a location that is very close to the 180 while the rest of the squad had dismissed that location as unusable. By the time squad 2 gets the WSB, and before the walkthrough, they hear: "Please be careful shooting at T7 as it is very close to the 180." Now, they start thinking "On first glance, T7 is nowhere close to the 180... unless there's a sweet spot someplace." </Devil's Advocate> Overall, though, I agree that the safety warnings are valid. As RO's our primary job is to provide a safe environment. Ideally these warnings should be incorporated into the WSB with RM approval, so that the appropriate sections under 2.3 in the rulebook kick in, and the RM has a chance to consider the competitive equity of such a change. Edited January 27, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 +1 I don't need the rule book read to me at make ready. LOL...ironically...how about the thread title then? The topic isn't about what happens at "make ready." You are right, I stand corrected. However, I do not need to be reminded of the rules during the reading of the WSB either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Do you adjust a popper you know is getting heavy, or wait until it fails to fall for a shooter, and then let them try their luck at calibration? What does that have to do with safety warnings on the WSB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You are right, I stand corrected. However, I do not need to be reminded of the rules during the reading of the WSB either. If all the shooters were you (or the well read folks on this forum) then there would be less issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Do you adjust a popper you know is getting heavy, or wait until it fails to fall for a shooter, and then let them try their luck at calibration? What does that have to do with safety warnings on the WSB? It's another form/example of "gotcha"...that is often managed and avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Sorry but the rules take a back seat to a safety concern. Maybe when the problem is noticed it should be corrected by the range staff before someone goes home with an extra hole? If the COF has that much of a hazard that the Ro is considering warning the next batch of shooters then the M.D. should be called over and that stage might have to be modified or the WSB changed to make the match stay safe. We all want to win and we all want the match to be the same for everyone but I don't want to win so bad that I want to see a fellow shooter get injured or killed so I won't lose....especially if the guy owes me money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I'm not sure here, but here it goes. I'm a fairly new shooter that has zip experience at big matches. That said, if there is a safety issue or a port that is going to hit me in the head I want to know if I legally can. If the situation has not been fixed before I hear make ready,and the Ro knows it, well I think everyone should be told. Allowing someone with a loaded firearm to be potentionally hit in the head, if you could have stopped it, is not only dangerous but just plain stupid. To me any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You are right, I stand corrected. However, I do not need to be reminded of the rules during the reading of the WSB either. If all the shooters were you (or the well read folks on this forum) then there would be less issues. So where does it end? Be careful of the 180 on that target over there. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard while reloading. Watch that port, it can hit you in the head. Don't trip and fall on that root. Be careful while reloading on that target to not break the 180. Don't shoot the ground closer than 10 feet from your feet. Do not cross the fault line when shooting that steel. Etc, etc... As soon as you start down that road, someone will do something that was not on your list of "Gotchas" then complain that you didn't warn them. If I beat you because I know the rules better than you, go do some reading. It ain't about "Gotcha". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 As far as the stage the the OP referenced. Do you really need to be told there is a chance to sweep yourself while reaching across your body to pull a rope that opens the port? If so, what else do you need to be told? (See John's list above.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 I appereciate all of the responses. After reading the discussion and thinking about it for a couple of days, it seems to me that the proper way to balance the safety concerns and stay within the letter of the rules, is to bring any issues to the RM's attention and request that a change be made to the WSB or to the stage if that is appropriate. If you end up with a DQ on a stage, while the RM is there dealing with the DQ, that would be a good time to discuss this with the RM before the next squad come to the stage. Several people have mentioned finding any unsafe issues with the stage before the match and making changes to the stage. Even though I certainly agree with that, people can find ways to DQ themselves on any stage. I don't think any of us want to shoot stages that are so boring that it would be impossible to break a safety rule, i.e stand in box and shoot at targets 30 yards away directly at your 12 o'clock. The issue I am talking about seems to be more prevalent at major matches where MDs are trying to put together unique and fun stages that many people don't see at their local clubs. Some people may never have even shot a stage where it was even possible to break the 180 or they may have never had to deal with props. Maybe just a general reminder to be safe and watch their muzzle might be enough to make them slow down in their stage planning and think about safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You are right, I stand corrected. However, I do not need to be reminded of the rules during the reading of the WSB either. If all the shooters were you (or the well read folks on this forum) then there would be less issues. So where does it end? Be careful of the 180 on that target over there. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard while reloading. Watch that port, it can hit you in the head. Don't trip and fall on that root. Be careful while reloading on that target to not break the 180. Don't shoot the ground closer than 10 feet from your feet. Do not cross the fault line when shooting that steel. Etc, etc... As soon as you start down that road, someone will do something that was not on your list of "Gotchas" then complain that you didn't warn them. If I beat you because I know the rules better than you, go do some reading. It ain't about "Gotcha". Huh... are you talking about "beating" somebody ?? If you see this as a competitive issue, then we can't discuss it. If you would rather send somebody home or see them get injured, when a simple heads-up might prevent that...well within the rules...then we aren't ever going to see eye to eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) You are right, I stand corrected. However, I do not need to be reminded of the rules during the reading of the WSB either. If all the shooters were you (or the well read folks on this forum) then there would be less issues. So where does it end? Be careful of the 180 on that target over there. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard while reloading. Watch that port, it can hit you in the head. Don't trip and fall on that root. Be careful while reloading on that target to not break the 180. Don't shoot the ground closer than 10 feet from your feet. Do not cross the fault line when shooting that steel. Etc, etc... As soon as you start down that road, someone will do something that was not on your list of "Gotchas" then complain that you didn't warn them. If I beat you because I know the rules better than you, go do some reading. It ain't about "Gotcha". Huh... are you talking about "beating" somebody ?? If you see this as a competitive issue, then we can't discuss it. If you would rather send somebody home or see them get injured, when a simple heads-up might prevent that...well within the rules...then we aren't ever going to see eye to eye. OK. Take that sentence out then. It's still not about "Gotcha". Edited January 27, 2012 by Singlestack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 John, I see your point. Here's my take -- Ideally problems would be solved in this sequence: Before the first shot. As soon as the problem is identified -- which might involve reshoots if the stage is changed or implementing a forbidden action Inclusion of a warning in the WSB. As far as the last one is concerned -- I feel about them the same way I feel about safety warning during the stage. I don't go looking for the opportunity to use hem, but I understand that they are a (very occasionally) useful tool to have in the toolbox..... I suspect that Flex is on the same page. While I don't like to include warnings in the WSB, there might be a time when I approve insertion of one -- because it's the best solution for that particular problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Deleted Edited January 27, 2012 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions. "Don't break the 180 on that target" vs "Finger". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions. Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions. Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions. :popcorn: --- this is the part that I wanted to get to... So... read WSB. End briefing - any questions? 5 minutes then. WARNING: watch your muzzle in on such and such targets or don't sweep yourself playing with the ports. Don't know. The problem is - Should we really be warning people about reaching for a door handle at a level 2 or higher match? - the situation OP is talking about is the equivalent. It wasn't that extreme. If we need to warn people about doors and ports, then we need to warn them about anytime they are reaching for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I can think of one match where the RO's said during the WSB, even though it was not written into it, "We have determined several spots that if you engaged targets past that point you will have broke the 180 and WILL be DQ'ed." Because the stage used a number of walls with targets behind them to both the left and the right, the RO had to determine 180's by shooters location on the course. As such I took it as a general warning that they would be watching for 180 violations, and that I as the shooter had be real sure to engage the targets as soon as I cleared the wall. As this relates to the OP, I would take the safety warnings as these are places that we will be watching you closely for this type of violation. Do NOT get so into the stage that you forget your safety as well as ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Issuing a safety "warning" is different from cautioning about potential DQabl actions. Issuing a safety "warning" is different from the same as cautioning about potential DQabl actions. :popcorn: --- this is the part that I wanted to get to... So... read WSB. End briefing - any questions? 5 minutes then. WARNING: watch your muzzle in on such and such targets or don't sweep yourself playing with the ports. Don't know. The problem is - Should we really be warning people about reaching for a door handle at a level 2 or higher match? - the situation OP is talking about is the equivalent. It wasn't that extreme. If we need to warn people about doors and ports, then we need to warn them about anytime they are reaching for something. There is no different rule here for match level. I'm pretty sure anybody here talking about this has the common sense to figure out when something is f*#ked up enough to need a safety warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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