Slide lock Reload

[dpeters8445]

In IDPA, during a standard, where you are specified to do a reload from slideLock. If your slide does not lock back, and you have to rack the slide to chamber a round is that a penalty.

What about if you have your slidestop ground down so the slide will not lock back. It that leagal in IDPA.

Thanks

[Mark Perez]

In IDPA, during a standard, where you are specified to do a reload from slideLock. If your slide does not lock back, and you have to rack the slide to chamber a round is that a penalty.

If your chamber is clear and the mag is empty - no.

What about if you have your slidestop ground down so the slide will not lock back. It that leagal in IDPA.

Not sure - you should check with IDPA to be certain.

Disabling the slidestop will result in a click instead of a bang when you least expect it - adding time to the raw score.

I tend to "ride" the slidestop on my glocks , so I speak from experience .

[Larrys1911]

Presently NO

Neither currently are illegal.

But if you make a big deal out of it someone will decide that youre gun not locking back is somehow an advantage and make it illegal for the slide stop not to work.

Larry P

[vincent]

I don't think it is illegal. However there are a lot of slide lock reloads in IDPA so the added time required to rack the slide will really add up by the end of the match.

To play the IDPA game I'd get my gun locking back so I wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

[Larrys1911]

Hey I just realized I can "see target"

COOL!

[Johnny Van Etta]

What about if you have your slidestop ground down so the slide will not lock back. It that leagal in IDPA.

If you have performed this action, "ground down your slidestop", and it can be identified, you will be assessed at least a FTDR. If I were involved, you would be assessed a DQ.

Why do you need to grind your slidestop? Is this your carry weapon? Do you carry your weapon in this condition?

This action is performed in concert with "Gaming / cheating" within IDPA. This type activity / mental thought has to be stopped.

Johnny Van Etta

IDPA Area Coordinator

Texas, New Mexico, Louisiana

CL-124

[AikiDale]

What about if you have your slidestop ground down so the slide will not lock back. It that leagal in IDPA.

If you have performed this action, "ground down your slidestop", and it can be identified, you will be assessed at least a FTDR. If I were involved, you would be assessed a DQ.

Why do you need to grind your slidestop? Is this your carry weapon? Do you carry your weapon in this condition?

This action is performed in concert with "Gaming / cheating" within IDPA. This type activity / mental thought has to be stopped.

Johnny Van Etta

IDPA Area Coordinator

Texas, New Mexico, Louisiana

CL-124

Johnny,

I have pistols configured both ways, and have not yet determined if it would be better for my carry pistol. I am curious why it is considered cheating/gaming? Please understand I do not wish to argue the point, I have no position and am trying to understand the advantage or disadvantage of this modification for a carry pistol. In an IDPA competitive pistol it would seem to be a disadvantage because of the stages which require a slidelock reload. Not having one would require more time to rack the slide after determining one was out of ammo I should think. The only time I have had a slide lock open other than when out of ammo was in a match when my support hand thumb bumped the slide stop and brought my shooting to a sudden halt. This made me consider changing the slide stop so this would not occur, thus making my carry pistol more reliable. my IDPA pistol has not been modified for the reasons mentioned above.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this,

Dale

[Ted Murphy]

FWIW, doing what was described above is seems like a hardware solution to a software problem.

I know that in the world of USPSA/IPSC shooting, grounding the slidestop down is fairly common. Doing so prevents one from bumping the slidestop up and prematurely locking the slide back while shooting. The fact that speed reloads are the order of the day in this sports makes this an

asset- that is unless you run the gun dry. So many shooters that have never experienced premature lock back do this as a matter of course.

I may be wrong but I do believe Sevigny's limited gun is modified so there is hardly anything protruding from the gun for the thumb to bump. As I recall, his high grip makes him bump the slidestop from time to time. I do not do it with a stock release on my glock, but do so on an extended version.

Short answer for IDPA legality is it isn't on the list of permitted modifications for SSP (though I suppose one could argue it's an "internal mod to enhance reliability" but as the part protrudes outside the gun, it's a dicey question) . Since ESP/CDP shooters can switch out slide releases, I do wonder what the difference between changing types of slide releases & modifying an existing one is. I dont' recall any rule stating slide releases cannot be modified, though there is a prohibition on extending them. There is of of course rule #2 which goes into using equipment to gain a competitive advantage (the ftdr rule) but this seems to be a case where the shooter is handicapping himself in the name of reliability.

If I had the trouble the poster did on my 1911, I would file off the pad on the slide release and contour it out some which should stop me from bumping it up but retain the slide locking back feature. (that or change my grip) Then I would merely have to slingshot the gun to get it in battery. I would not choose to carry a gun that did not lock back. I would buy another gun that fit me better. Odds are you won't run your gun dry in a gunfight but if I did I'd rather see/experience the "empty gun indicator" of a locked back slide than suffer the deafening "click" on a chamber I thought was loaded. YMMV.

Ted

[Larrys1911]

What about if you have your slidestop ground down so the slide will not lock back. It that leagal in IDPA.

If you have performed this action, "ground down your slidestop", and it can be identified, you will be assessed at least a FTDR. If I were involved, you would be assessed a DQ.

Why do you need to grind your slidestop? Is this your carry weapon? Do you carry your weapon in this condition?

This action is performed in concert with "Gaming / cheating" within IDPA. This type activity / mental thought has to be stopped.

Johnny Van Etta

IDPA Area Coordinator

Texas, New Mexico, Louisiana

CL-124

OK Ill jump in here cause I think I know why.. I disagree with Johnny 100% too.

Answer: Because some cheating a_-hole figured out that he could do a Speedload and blame it on a Malfunction or whatever and get away with it....

SO instead of penalizing THAT F'in Bastard and leaving it at that we end up over thinking it and worrying about someone that really is innocent of all of it.

The problem here is the people from IPSC set up their guns (Limited and Limited 10) to not lock back because they do speedloads and never run dry (an old tactic that has much merrit). They bring the same gun over to IDPA to try a new sport and it hinders them...Then there are the .5% of shooters out there that will cheat and they have figured out a way to CHEAT around the gun locking back by calling it a malfunction ...

If the person is truely shooting empty without the slide locking back it will do nothing but hurt their score....I see zero problem...You wanna screw yourself Ill let you.

Honestly I think its STUPID to even worry about this, any SO thats on his toes will catch it if its wrong in all but 99% of the cases (there is a reason they might not catch it but I am not going to splain it for the bastards to learn from) At that point in a best case situation a .2-.4 second advantage of a speedload just cost you 3 seconds min for doing a speedload. Not worth the risk in my book. If they take the time to rack the slide I dont care if the gun locks back or not. Its just like the using the slingshot method to release the slide...... SLOW, And that is not only used in competition but TAUGHT by "tactical" instructors that think I am so inept I cant hit a slide release! Racking the slide is no different NONE in fact its worse.

SO if they have their gun set up to do it they are hurting themselves WAY more than helping.

To be cheating with it they would have to do so on EVERY STAGE and I dont think they will get away with it for that long.

In addition to that worring about that is an invitation to insanity. Ive seen way to many factory and factory custom guns that wont lock the slide back from the factory and I am talking about regular Kimbers, Sprinfields, Wilsons, Baers etc 1911 45s not the ones from S?I. many slide stops are sold with detents so deep there is no freakin way you will get it to lock the slide back. Last but not least IF I was going to do it I know enough about a 1911 to make it impossible to tell without a mastergunsmith and either taking the gun apart and or miking the parts involved and I am an amature Gunsmith so anyone that knows more than me should be able to do it even better... there are a few ways to do it where it would be impossible to be sure that it was done on purpose..........This is a waste of time and energy for all involved!

Glocks are bad about it. because the slide release is right under the thumb.

Tell me how to say that was done on purpose?

We are wasting our time with this one ....Teach the SOs what to look for and that will take care of that.....otherwise we are dealing with malfunctioning guns (which there are WAY more of than people trying to cheat) and guns set up for IPSC Ditto the above PLUS these guys are competitiors also and they will correct their guns on their own when they realize that its hurting their times..

IMO we are going to hurt the good guys while trying to catch the .5% that are cheaters.....Personally I think thats the wrong way to go as the only thing it really accomplishes is pissing "good" people off. Lets go after the KNOWN cheaters and put them under a microscope.......get them out. Instead of looking for things like this that will cause a bigger problem than they fix!

Johnny you know I respect your opinions, and you. I think this is one where you are wrong. I think you have fallen prey to things that "can" happen but very rarely do! I dont think this deserves the discussion its gotten here already, much less the amount that it has gotten in other places....

See ya soon and we'll talk about it face to face!

JMO

Larry P

[Ted Murphy]

Answer: Because some cheating a_-hole figured out that he could do a Speedload and blame it on a Malfunction or whatever and get away with it....

Oh My goodness, first the Ghost Load, now the Ghost Emergency Load. What will people think of next?

My my, if they only practiced instead, they might do even better.

At the Carolina Cup this year prior to the awards I eavesdropped on a shooter who had a nice reality check this year. He was a white hot shooter in his own area but came to the cup and got "Served" as they say. He actually conceded to another shooter that the Va/Carolina shooters are just about the best out there and superior to his competition at home.

I found it noteworthy as that Va/Carolinas has never been associated with large throngs of folks who train together and practice their gaming techniques, etc, but are just a bunch of hard shooting fun folks. I considered what the shooter above said as a victory of hard work over shortcuts. YMMV.

Ted

[Flexmoney]

First, let me put on my Forum Administrator hat..

Let's try to talk without the a-hole and bastard wording...it serves little purpose and isn't needed on this forum.

OK...back on topic.

I would think that Larry is right...a big deal seems to be being made of this.

I am fairly sure that the shooter that posted the question has a gun that he uses in "another sport". I think he would like to try shooting IDPA with the gear he has.

Will he be welcome?

[Mark Perez]

he will be welcomed out here - though I can't speak for other areas.

MP

[vincent]

I assume the shooter is talking about a 1911 style pistol with the internal engagement tab ground down so it does not engage the lip of the magazine. As mentioned this is a common modification to aid in reliability. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who carry guns that don't lock back when empty.

This modification will put the shooter at a disadvantage in IDPA and I don't think this modification alone would be the grounds for an FTDR or a DQ. As long as the shooter is going dry when appropriate for his magazine capacity and is racking the slide on the empty chamber (ie. no round is being ejected) after the reload I would say they were complying with the "spirit of the stage" and were not "making a travesty of the shooting sport" (IDPA rules 2 and 3).

However if the shooter attempted to use this modification to gain a competitive advantage on a stage then an FTDR would be appropriate. I would take this the same as downloading a magazine. Repeat offenses would be grounds for a DQ from the entire match.

Again I would not recommend using a pistol so modified in IDPA since slide lock reloads are so common and the slide stop is so easy to replace. It would be to the shooter's advantage to spend the $40 for an unmodified slide stop.

Just my opinion.

All of these calls are at the discretion of the safety officer/match director so you will get different answers from different people.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm curious about something: Shooter A's slide doesn't lock back. On a required slide-lock reload, he reloads and racks the slide without a round exiting the ejection port. Shooter B'sslide doesn't lock back. On a required slide-lock reload, he reloads and racks the slide with a round exiting the ejection port. How are the two shooters actions different? Would you treat them differently as an S.O. and if so, why?

[Mark Perez]

I'm curious about something:  Shooter A's slide doesn't lock back.  On a required slide-lock reload, he reloads and racks the slide without a round exiting the ejection port.  Shooter B'sslide doesn't lock back.  On a required slide-lock reload, he reloads and racks the slide with a round exiting the ejection port.  How are the two shooters actions different?  Would you treat them differently as an S.O. and if so, why?

First , I think a review of the rules are in order:

From page 3

There is NO provision for a slide down (speed reload) in IDPA shooting. All reloads must be either made from slide-lock or be of the tactical-load/mag. change with retention type. A shooter is deemed “loaded” and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the magazine is fully seated and the slide is closed or revolver cylinder is closed.

RULE 18

On stages requiring the shooter to reload, but not designated as a TACTICAL LOAD stage, the shooter may be required to shoot the gun dry before reloading in order to more closely simulate a real world situation.  Failure to do so will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. There are only two (2) approved types of re-loads in IDPA competition: #1 re-load from slide lock (shooter will be considered loaded when the slide is closed with a round in the chamber), #2 Tactical Load/Reload with Retention. A reload with a round still in the chamber (slide down) and abandoning any magazine, will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty, or possibly a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty.

If you read/apply the definition of a slide down reload , then technically shooter B earned the PE .

The 2 shooters actions are more identical than different .

If we follow the LGB to the letter , an SO is obligated to issue the PE.

However ,the LGB does give some lattitude to SO/MD's about "hammering over the head" with the rules and their application .See pg 49.

ASSISTING THE SHOOTER

Every effort should be made to assist the shooter in having a safe and enjoyable match. It is the goal of the safety officer to thoroughly explain the course-of-fire, answer questions, instruct the shooter on safety, give the benefit of the doubt on any questionable scoring question or ruling and do anything possible to assist the shooter during the match. Issuing a procedural penalty and/or disqualification should be the last thing a good IDPA SO would want to do. The range NAZI mentality of us (SOs) against them (shooters) is NOT welcome in IDPA and will NOT be tolerated.

I would overlook this particular infraction.

[John Forsyth]

All I know is this. Two years ago at the Nats, I was shooting an ESP gun that started out fine, but about midway through the match it quit locking back. It cost me dearly in time. I probably would have been better off to take a FTDR and done speed reloads for the rest of the match.

If you have to do RWR or TL's when every one else is doing SLR's, you are loosing time. If you are racking the slide everytime someone else is just releasing the slide, you are loosing time. Do not see an issue here.

[dpeters8445]

For the singlestackers, In my opinion a benifit of setting up your gun so the slide doesn't lock back would be that you wouldn't have to worry about over inserting a mag. How many times have you seen a guy with a singlestack do a reload from slidelock, slam the mag home, hit the slide stop release, and end up with a death jam so bad that they have to get a peice of dowel rod and mallet to clear the gun.

The other thing is that say for an esp gun shooting minor power factor, the margin for error goes up as far as the slide locking back every single time when the gun runs dry. If you set up your gun to not lock open when the gun runs dry you could train yourself to instead of going for the slide release, rack the slide, it may not actually be that much slower.

I'm a little disapointed in some of the things that some of you said in this thread. Some of you are not doing a very good job of representing IDPA. I asked a simple question on the rules and I got a bunch of BS like I was tring to cheat or something. Guess what guys, I am an IDPA SO and IDPA is what got me into shooting handguns. I shoot for three reasons. To have fun, for the compitition, and to win. I just waunted a little advise on the rules.

[Mark Perez]

For the singlestackers, In my opinion a benifit of setting up your gun so the slide doesn't lock back would be that you wouldn't have to worry about over inserting a mag. How many times have you seen a guy with a singlestack do a reload from slidelock, slam the mag home, hit the slide stop release, and end up with a death jam so bad that they have to get a peice of dowel rod and mallet to clear the gun.

That is a very good point.

While I have only seen it once - it took some time and more than 1 person to 'unstuck' the gun.

MP

[rhino]

I'm sure there are plenty of folks who carry guns that don't lock back when empty.

You're absolutely right about that.

I have one gun that won't lock open on an empty mag, and my 9mm won't do it with .38 Super magazines. I also know people who will not carry a gun that locks back. Their reasoning (and it makes sense) is that having a gun that locks back prematurely for whatever reason is a much bigger liability (regardless of the situation) than having one that won't lock back on an empty magazine. Once you run dry, you're in trouble anyway, but if you lock back after the first round (and it can happen on any gun), you're in much worse trouble.

This modification will put the shooter at a disadvantage in IDPA and I don't think this modification alone would be the grounds for an FTDR or a DQ.

I agree 100%.

[Nik Habicht]

Mark,

O.K. we're on the same page. That's the way we used to deal with the situation when I was involved in running club matches....

Now if the dropped mag still had ammo in it, or if the shooter didn't cycle the slide, that was a different story....

[vincent]

I have seen the slide-lock over-insertion jam quite a few times and had it happen to me once. It really is a "death jam" and can be quite difficult to remedy often keeping the shooter from completing the stage. It a gunfight it would be game over!

[Flexmoney]

Yep, we had a shooter that had on this month.

It took tools and a few people to clear it.

[gmshtr]

If you have performed this action, "ground down your slidestop", and it can be identified, you will be assessed at least a FTDR. If I were involved, you would be assessed a DQ.

Johnny,

This goes against any logical thought and reason. It bewilders me that you would make this arguement.

I know this is going to hurt, but IDPA isn't realistic. It's a game, and there's no logical argument against that. If someone wants to play the game with a disadvantage, then so be it. There are plenty of carry guns that don't lock back when empty. A match DQ.....UNBELIEVEABLE!!!

On a different note, I would DEFINITELY, STRONGLY suggest a gun that locks back. That's the reason I don't shoot my IPSC gun in IDPA.

Phil S

[ron durham]

Hi Phil S.

Thanks for saying what I wanted to. I double the unbelievable. I would like to say more but I think I will leave it at that. You know in our Club, the gentleman would certainly be able to continue the match and I think I would just ask him to have it repaired for the next match......just like we do when guys show up with illegal equipment such as mag pouches and so on.....we just tell them to have the right stuff for the next match.

Thanks for your post.

Ron Durham

[outlier01]

In 1911s, at least, a weak magazine spring or poorly-adjusted follower may also result in a faliure to lock back the slide when the magazine is empty. And, this may not happen each time the magazine is emptied. Will this receive a procedural, a FTDR, or match disqualification? How will the SO know if failure to have the slide lock back is due to a bad magazine or a modified slide lock? Will we require tear down and inspection of the firearm?

Mike McGinn