Squibs

[Sarge]

First let me say that I don't agree with the rule book definition of a squib.

Squib . . . . . . . . . . . . . .A bullet or solid obstruction lodged inside the barrel

of a firearm.

I personally think that even if a bullet clears the barrel and lands 5 feet away it is a squib. The ammo is just as unsafe maybe even more so because it could lodge further down the barrel next time and leave room for a new round to chamber etc.. I hope you get my point.

The problem with the rules and that definition is that the shooter has no idea if he had a squib or not. Did that really weak pop clear the barrel or not? The RO does not stop him because he is somehow out of position enough to not notice. The shooter is left with a tough choice but the smart call is to stop so you don't kill yourself or your gun.

I just think this rule screws the shooter because he makes a good safe choice.

If I were shooting and thought I had an obstruction I would stop. Hell, even if the RO was trying to be a "good guy" and tells me he saw it impact downrange I would still stop.

I know we are supposed to follow the rule book to the letter. As a matter of fact I'm a firm believer of that! But I may have a tough time doing so in this case.

BUT

If you are an RO and a shooter suspects a squib and stops AND YOU WERE SO FAR OUT OF POSITION (kind words for not doing your job)SO AS NOT TO NOTICE would you give him the benefit of the doubt and issue a reshoot based on the fact that you were not where you should have been.

If you are an RO and you see the round impact downrange after a shooter stops because he suspects a squib, do you say anything?

If you are an RO and a shooter suspects a squib and stops do you let him drop a pebble or whatever down the barrel(from the chamber end of course)? If it proves clear do you let him continue to shoot?

The reason I am asking is because any of these situations could indicate unsafe ammo and could therefore warrant the RO taking action.

I know there is the whole specter of cheating but I'm not talking about that here. I'll let 10.6 take care of that.

[remoandiris]

I had my first squib a few weeks ago. I did NOT know it. The RO stopped me. The action was jammed. Another shooter helped me clear it. Squib rod inserted...blocked. A little exertion pushed the bullet back out the chamber. DNF on that stage.

Stage design plays a role in the RO not being close to the shooter. I RO'd a shooter several months ago who thought he had a squib. The shooter was in the "backing up range" portion of the CoF and he moves fast, so I was well behind him while keeping an eye on his strong hand. I did NOT see anything that indicated a squib. He stopped himself...no squib. He got a lot of FTSAs and mikes.

I don't think there is an easy/clean/clear answer for the squib/no squib/RO stop/self stop issue.

[Sarge]

I don't think there is an easy/clean/clear answer for the squib/no squib/RO stop/self stop issue.

That is what all my words more or less boiled down to. Thanks for summarizing.

[grapemeister]

Not being an RO, and only having a couple of years experience in USPSA, I had to look this one up in the rule book. I read the rules pertaining to what your talking about several times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the rules seem pretty clear, and fair to me.

Bottom line, wether my gun breaks or I have a squib, I have an oppurtunity to fix the problem, and then continue the course of fire if I'm able to do so safely. If the RO stops me, and it turns out there was no squib or other unsafe problem with the gun, I'm allowed a reshoot.

Am I missing something?

Oh, by the way I'm taking the RO class in February and very much looking forward to it.

Edited December 23, 2011 by grapemiester

[Nik Habicht]

Kevin, it's tricky -- because we can't have a rule set so that a competitor can get a reshoot on a poorly executed stage at will, by claiming a squib......

That said, I'd probably err on the caution, as an RO and issue the stop command, when faced with a shooter who indicated that he thought he had a squib.....

It's not a definitive answer -- would still be a judgment call at the time of occurrence....

[GrumpyOne]

Not being an RO, and only having a couple of years experience in USPSA, I had to look this one up in the rule book. I read the rules pertaining to what your talking about several times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the rules seem pretty clear, and fair to me.

Bottom line, wether I my gun breaks or I have a squib, I have an oppurtunity to fix the problem, and then continue the course of fire if I'm able to do so safely. If the RO stops me, and it turns out there was no squib or other unsafe problem with the gun, I'm allowed a reshoot.

Am I missing something?

Oh, by the way I'm taking the RO class in February and very much looking forward to it.

Chris, read 5.7.7.1 and 5.7.7.2 . If the squib is confirmed, you will not be issued a re-shoot

[GrumpyOne]

Not being an RO, and only having a couple of years experience in USPSA, I had to look this one up in the rule book. I read the rules pertaining to what your talking about several times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the rules seem pretty clear, and fair to me.

Bottom line, wether I my gun breaks or I have a squib, I have an oppurtunity to fix the problem, and then continue the course of fire if I'm able to do so safely. If the RO stops me, and it turns out there was no squib or other unsafe problem with the gun, I'm allowed a reshoot.

Am I missing something?

Oh, by the way I'm taking the RO class in February and very much looking forward to it.

Chris, read 5.7.7.1 and 5.7.7.2 . If the squib is confirmed, you will not be issued a re-shoot

You must fix the problem, but the stage is scored as shot up until the squib. Even if you can fix.the squib during the cof.

[grapemeister]

Not being an RO, and only having a couple of years experience in USPSA, I had to look this one up in the rule book. I read the rules pertaining to what your talking about several times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the rules seem pretty clear, and fair to me.

Bottom line, wether I my gun breaks or I have a squib, I have an oppurtunity to fix the problem, and then continue the course of fire if I'm able to do so safely. If the RO stops me, and it turns out there was no squib or other unsafe problem with the gun, I'm allowed a reshoot.

Am I missing something?

Oh, by the way I'm taking the RO class in February and very much looking forward to it.

Chris, read 5.7.7.1 and 5.7.7.2 . If the squib is confirmed, you will not be issued a re-shoot

Yeah, I read that part, and it seems fair to me. Maybe with my limited experience I'm having trouble imagining when there could be controversy.

[Sarge]

Kevin, it's tricky -- because we can't have a rule set so that a competitor can get a reshoot on a poorly executed stage at will, by claiming a squib......

That said, I'd probably err on the caution, as an RO and issue the stop command, when faced with a shooter who indicated that he thought he had a squib.....

It's not a definitive answer -- would still be a judgment call at the time of occurrence....

I agree Nik. It's just that there will always be those who say there is no such thing as "err on the side of caution" when it comes to the rules. Just like "Benefit of the doubt".

To me it is nearly the same as an RO not being able to stop a shooter for a violation if he was out of position and did not witness it. You can't DQ a shooter for what you think he did even though you know in your heart he committed the violation. This is, in essence, giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt. The rules are dictating that he be given the benefit of the doubt.

The rules should allow the same consideration on a major safety issue.

Like I said, there will occasionally be a gamer or cheater but they are few and far between and we just have to be vigilant where they are concerned.

As a matter of fact squibs themselves are not all that common so it would not be an every day thing to err on the side of caution.

[Sarge]

Not being an RO, and only having a couple of years experience in USPSA, I had to look this one up in the rule book. I read the rules pertaining to what your talking about several times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the rules seem pretty clear, and fair to me.

Bottom line, wether I my gun breaks or I have a squib, I have an oppurtunity to fix the problem, and then continue the course of fire if I'm able to do so safely. If the RO stops me, and it turns out there was no squib or other unsafe problem with the gun, I'm allowed a reshoot.

Am I missing something?

Oh, by the way I'm taking the RO class in February and very much looking forward to it.

Chris, read 5.7.7.1 and 5.7.7.2 . If the squib is confirmed, you will not be issued a re-shoot

Yeah, I read that part, and it seems fair to me. Maybe with my limited experience I'm having trouble imagining when there could be controversy.

Any game with rules is subject to controversy to some degree. To me this is less about controversy than it is safety. How would you feel as a brand new RO and a guy is shooting and has a squib that you don't notice. He might not understand what will happen if he racks another round in there and pulls the trigger. So after looking to you with that puzzled look and you say nothing because you are trying to toe the line, he sets another round off and KABOOM! Do you feel better because you did the right thing by the rules or do you regret it the rest of your life that he lost a finger, eye, etc..

[ErichF]

I'm new here, but I see penalizing someone for making a call on the side of safety a very bad thing, no matter what the sport and rules are. If there are safety Nazis, and Rules Nazis, I guess I'm on the side of safety. At a local match this past weekend, this guy had TWO squibs, on back to back stages. He withdrew after the second squib, citing potentially bad ammo (duhh). In both cases, the RO stopped the shooter (actually the entire squad yelled STOP.)

So, reading this bit about squibs on the two threads here on Benos, it got me thinking. If I hear what I think is a squib shot from my gun, and I stop...then turn around and see the RO 12 feet behind me with a dumb look on his face...is it such a big nightmare to request a re-shoot at a level I match? Whose shooting career will come to an end if I get a re-shoot?

I think it's best to leave the rules as they are, but have some discretion to give the shooter benefit of doubt. Don't back a guy against a rule book wall and force him to make a silly decision between game and safety.

[GrumpyOne]

Erich, by that same view, its not gonna destroy a guys shooting career to have him zero the stage either..... If he stops himself, that's the outcome, per the rules. Err on the side of safety, get all applicable misses and penalties.

[Sarge]

I'm new here, but I see penalizing someone for making a call on the side of safety a very bad thing, no matter what the sport and rules are. If there are safety Nazis, and Rules Nazis, I guess I'm on the side of safety. At a local match this past weekend, this guy had TWO squibs, on back to back stages. He withdrew after the second squib, citing potentially bad ammo (duhh). In both cases, the RO stopped the shooter (actually the entire squad yelled STOP.)

So, reading this bit about squibs on the two threads here on Benos, it got me thinking. If I hear what I think is a squib shot from my gun, and I stop...then turn around and see the RO 12 feet behind me with a dumb look on his face...is it such a big nightmare to request a re-shoot at a level I match? Whose shooting career will come to an end if I get a re-shoot?

I think it's best to leave the rules as they are, but have some discretion to give the shooter benefit of doubt. Don't back a guy against a rule book wall and force him to make a silly decision between game and safety.

Erich, Very common sense opinions. BUT I don't consider myself extreme when it comes to rules. I believe in following them for sure but I also believe in everybody going home with all their body parts still attached and functional. That being said the only part of your post that will draw a lot of fire is using the local match scenario. I and just about every RO I personally know treats all sanctioned matches the same. A DQ is a DQ, etc... I'll probably never work the Nationals but if I did and a judgement call ever had to be made regarding safety I would make it.

[Sarge]

Good point Grumpy.

Get my PM?

[ErichF]

Erich, by that same view, its not gonna destroy a guys shooting career to have him zero the stage either..... If he stops himself, that's the outcome, per the rules. Err on the side of safety, get all applicable misses and penalties.

Well that's what I would do...but some folks are a bit more competitive and just might push their luck. What's the lesser evil here?

[GrumpyOne]

Erich, by that same view, its not gonna destroy a guys shooting career to have him zero the stage either..... If he stops himself, that's the outcome, per the rules. Err on the side of safety, get all applicable misses and penalties.

Well that's what I would do...but some folks are a bit more competitive and just might push their luck. What's the lesser evil here?

When it comes down to it, its just that, their luck, if the RO did not stop them. What it boils down to is, how sure are you of your ammo? I've loaded upwards of 40,000 rounds and have never had a squib.....but I might have one tomorrow.....and it clears the barrel and I stop myself for safety, I'll take the misses and penalties. I don't get a reshoot. That's just the way the cookie crumbled. Now, I'm gonna go find some wood to knock on.

[grapemeister]

Not being an RO, and only having a couple of years experience in USPSA, I had to look this one up in the rule book. I read the rules pertaining to what your talking about several times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the rules seem pretty clear, and fair to me.

Bottom line, wether I my gun breaks or I have a squib, I have an oppurtunity to fix the problem, and then continue the course of fire if I'm able to do so safely. If the RO stops me, and it turns out there was no squib or other unsafe problem with the gun, I'm allowed a reshoot.

Am I missing something?

Oh, by the way I'm taking the RO class in February and very much looking forward to it.

Chris, read 5.7.7.1 and 5.7.7.2 . If the squib is confirmed, you will not be issued a re-shoot

Yeah, I read that part, and it seems fair to me. Maybe with my limited experience I'm having trouble imagining when there could be controversy.

Any game with rules is subject to controversy to some degree. To me this is less about controversy than it is safety. How would you feel as a brand new RO and a guy is shooting and has a squib that you don't notice. He might not understand what will happen if he racks another round in there and pulls the trigger. So after looking to you with that puzzled look and you say nothing because you are trying to toe the line, he sets another round off and KABOOM! Do you feel better because you did the right thing by the rules or do you regret it the rest of your life that he lost a finger, eye, etc..

Good point, and I do understand the point you are making. This is why I've waited two years to take the RO class. Although my shooting experience goes back before joining USPSA, I still wanted to wait until I had a good basic understanding of the game, along with some real life shooting experiences, before becoming an RO.

Squibs do scare me. Thankfully I've never had a squib in a match, but I've had them in practice. And, thankfully I had enough experience to recognize the squib, and not try to chamber another round. Given these experiences, I will not hesitate to stop a shooter if I suspect there was a squib, and it appears the shooter is going to fire, or attempt to fire the gun again. But, if I did not witness, or suspect a squib, but a shooter stops and gives me a puzzled look, I'm not going to assume anything. That's on him, and I believe I could live with that. God, I just pray that the scenario you presented never happens.

Excellent post that brought out some excellent discussion. Thought provoking!

[Kevin Pledger]

Kevin, it's tricky -- because we can't have a rule set so that a competitor can get a reshoot on a poorly executed stage at will, by claiming a squib......

That said, I'd probably err on the caution, as an RO and issue the stop command, when faced with a shooter who indicated that he thought he had a squib.....

It's not a definitive answer -- would still be a judgment call at the time of occurrence....

Nik,

I had this happen to me when I was CRO at the 2007 Nationals. Was a Super Squad competitor, screwed upon the first section of the stage, he then suddenly stopped looked at me indicating he thought he had a squib,waited for me to stop him, but I didn't, he then realised his folly, so had no choice but to carry on, racked the slide back, out popped a suspect round, continued shooting, of course he had wasted precious seconds.

After inspecting the round you could visually see it was a light hammer strike, and out of curiosity my fellow RO's later on pulled the round and it had no powder in it.

From my experience I have seen a lot of Competitor's do apply undue pressure on RO's, to try and get reshoots for various reasons. I knew in my own mind it wasnt a squib, so I stood my ground.

The rest of the Super Squad, did thank me for standing my ground and not allowing the reshoot.

Cheers ....

[Graham Smith]

That said, I'd probably err on the caution, as an RO and issue the stop command, when faced with a shooter who indicated that he thought he had a squib.....

This is probably the best answer I have seen to this dilemma.

If I am a shooter and I think I've had a squib then I'm going to stop regardless of whether the RO tells me to or not.

If I am an RO and a shooter stops and says they think they have a squib or that there is any other serious problem, I'm going to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and call stop. That way, if they can fix it and get back to shooting, they can reshoot the stage. I don't want to penalize a shooter for playing it safe.

As to the cheating - yes, it can happen, but I doubt anyone could get away with it in regular (Level I) matches.

Now, all that said, at Level II and above I would probably have to stick to the rules just because.

[Skydiver]

As an RO, there's also times when it's hard to tell if a shot is a squib purely based on sound. If the shooter is trying to get rid of some mixed ammo, the sound from shot to shot could be different. The RO should be watching the gun.

It gets tougher when the peanut gallery starts yelling "Stop! Squib!"

[Chills1994]

sargent wrote:

Any game with rules is subject to controversy to some degree. To me this is less about controversy than it is safety. How would you feel as a brand new RO and a guy is shooting and has a squib that you don't notice. He might not understand what will happen if he racks another round in there and pulls the trigger. So after looking to you with that puzzled look and you say nothing because you are trying to toe the line, he sets another round off and KABOOM! Do you feel better because you did the right thing by the rules or do you regret it the rest of your life that he lost a finger, eye, etc..

You are presenting me with two entirely different scenarios here.

In the first one, you say he has no clue he has a squib but doesn't realize. Me as RO I do realize it.

Would I feel like a jerk for not stopping him?

In that instance, yes.

In the second scenario, the shooter acknowledges that something weird is going on with his gun because he has the puzzled look on his face.

The clock is still running.

It is up to him to figure out what the problem is.

He could do the drop a pebble down the barrel trick or slide a ball point pen down the barrel trick.

Heck, he could even try holding up to the light and seeing if light is coming down from the muzzle end of the barrel.

I don't know what the rules are about disassembling/field stripping a gun on the clock????

I am not forcing him to rack another round into the chamber.

I am not forcing him to pull the trigger on a fresh round.

The onus for his welfare and his gun's welfare lies strictly with him.

Would I feel bad because he blew up his gun and got hurt, lost a finger?

Yeah...kinda...

Do I take any of the blame or would I feel any guilt?

Not just no but HELL NO!

[Chills1994]

skydiver wrote:

...It gets tougher when the peanut gallery starts yelling "Stop! Squib!"...

I am sure we have been down this road before in other threads... But let's say you and I are buddies squaded together. I see you fire a few rounds in one array and one of your bullets hits a no shoot. I start yelling out "STOP! SQUIB!" , what then?

[Dan Hefta]

I have only had one squib in all my years of shooting (thanks Dillon SDB!) and I didn't know it was a squib and no one else knew it was a squib. I tryed desperately to get the next round into battery but it wouldn't go (Thank GOD!). I had a very experienced CRO holding the timer too. My point is this... Shit Happens... We are not playing cards or bowling, there is a real element of danger in this sport we all love. I think that is part of why we all do it.

[SDM]

...If I am a shooter and I think I've had a squib then I'm going to stop regardless of whether the RO tells me to or not...

So you would expect the shooter to think for himself? That's a novel idea. We need to take responsiblity for it if we blow up our gun. It's not the RO's fault, it's the shooter's. The rule protects me (as the shooter) from a mistake by the RO. I don't think the purpose is give me a mulligan because my crappy reloads give me problems.

As an RO, there's also times when it's hard to tell if a shot is a squib purely based on sound. If the shooter is trying to get rid of some mixed ammo, the sound from shot to shot could be different. The RO should be watching the gun.

It gets tougher when the peanut gallery starts yelling "Stop! Squib!"

The peanut gallery needs to shut up or be DQed.

[Chills1994]

Conversely... You and I hate each others guts but we end up being squadded together. You're shooting a smokin' fast run and I call out "STOP! SQUIB!"...what then?