Chills1994 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 that probably deserves its own thread. Maybe there needs to be a provision or provisions in the rulebook that distinguish between sweeping yourself with a loaded handgun versus a proven to be UNloaded (locked back?) handgun. and/or provisions for field stripping or disassembling the gun while on the clock to check for a barrel obstruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 that probably deserves its own thread. Maybe there needs to be a provision or provisions in the rulebook that distinguish between sweeping yourself with a loaded handgun versus a proven to be UNloaded (locked back?) handgun. and/or provisions for field stripping or disassembling the gun while on the clock to check for a barrel obstruction. Glocks, CZ's, and Tanfoglio's (without bull barrels) can be field stripped without sweeping yourself. I forget, but I think it is also doable with a Beretta 92. I haven't played with XD's and HK's enough to remember if it's doable. Anyway, thankfully, USPSA removed the "no tools" rule. A squib rod with the offset handle like the Arredondo Squib rod should allow you to insert into the muzzle end without sweeping yourself. It'll probably be quicker than field stripping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 such as dropping a small pebble down the barrel from the muzzle end while the slide is locked back...or by sliding something like a ball point pen again from the muzzle end and watching for it to poke out the breech end before attempting to fire a good live round through it. Chills I really don't mean to continually be at odds with you but it has been pretty much universally accepted that you can't put anything down a muzzle without sweeping yourself. Just sayin'. But, at that point you'd stop and DQ the shooter, right? Problem solved..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 such as dropping a small pebble down the barrel from the muzzle end while the slide is locked back...or by sliding something like a ball point pen again from the muzzle end and watching for it to poke out the breech end before attempting to fire a good live round through it. Chills I really don't mean to continually be at odds with you but it has been pretty much universally accepted that you can't put anything down a muzzle without sweeping yourself. Just sayin'. But, at that point you'd stop and DQ the shooter, right? Problem solved..... Of course it would be a DQ and it would solve the immediate problem. Still does not resolve the overall issue being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I'll send Sarge and Nik PM's each here in a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I was under the impression that once an RO stops a shooter because of a suspected squib or other unsafe condition of the gun, the shooter was done at that point, and would not be allowed to continue even if the shooter was able to make the gun safe to shoot. An RO was telling me today that the 2 minute rule still applies, and the shooter may continue if he/she can clear the squib or otherwise make the gun safe to shoot with in 2 minutes. Is this true? I'm so confused! Edited January 9, 2012 by grapemiester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I was under the impression that once an RO stops a shooter because of a suspected squib or other unsafe condition of the gun, the shooter was done at that point, and would not be allowed to continue even if the shooter was able to make the gun safe to shoot. An RO was telling me today that the 2 minute rule still applies, and the shooter may continue if he/she can clear the squib or otherwise make the gun safe to shoot with in 2 minutes. Is this true? I'm so confused! Stop means done! Actually this is one of the more clear parts of the rule book. The 2 minute rule does not apply once Stop is given. The COF is ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I was under the impression that once an RO stops a shooter because of a suspected squib or other unsafe condition of the gun, the shooter was done at that point, and would not be allowed to continue even if the shooter was able to make the gun safe to shoot. An RO was telling me today that the 2 minute rule still applies, and the shooter may continue if he/she can clear the squib or otherwise make the gun safe to shoot with in 2 minutes. Is this true? I'm so confused! Stop means done! Actually this is one of the more clear parts of the rule book. The 2 minute rule does not apply once Stop is given. The COF is ended. Thanks. This leads me to my next question. Couldn't the shooter argue that since he/she wasn't given an opportunity to make the gun safe, that he or she is entitled to a reshoot? I could see myself making that argument if an RO stopped me without 1st giving me the opportunity to rectify the problem. Don't get me wrong; I will not hesitate to yell stop when the time comes. I just want to have a clear understanding of the rules. Thanks for your help. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Conversely... You and I hate each others guts but we end up being squadded together. You're shooting a smokin' fast run and I call out "STOP! SQUIB!"...what then? Whoever does this intentionally WILL, at bare minimum, get a procedural from me. I have had to have some pretty firm talks with competitors who attempt to stop their buddies because targets are not taped. If it's done intentionally to disrupt another shooter, I would issue an unsportsmanlike DQ for it and not feel bad about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I was under the impression that once an RO stops a shooter because of a suspected squib or other unsafe condition of the gun, the shooter was done at that point, and would not be allowed to continue even if the shooter was able to make the gun safe to shoot. An RO was telling me today that the 2 minute rule still applies, and the shooter may continue if he/she can clear the squib or otherwise make the gun safe to shoot with in 2 minutes. Is this true? I'm so confused! Stop means done! Actually this is one of the more clear parts of the rule book. The 2 minute rule does not apply once Stop is given. The COF is ended. Thanks. This leads me to my next question. Couldn't the shooter argue that since he/she wasn't given an opportunity to make the gun safe, that he or she is entitled to a reshoot? I could see myself making that argument if an RO stopped me without 1st giving me the opportunity to rectify the problem. Don't get me wrong; I will not hesitate to yell stop when the time comes. I just want to have a clear understanding of the rules. Thanks for your help. Chris Yes, see rule 5.7.7.2: 5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problemdoes not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage. Basically what you're asking is if there is a decent remedy for the RO stopping someone and erring on the side of caution, and the answer is, yes there is, and it is specifically required by the rules. Also, for the record, I don't know the guy who was at the 2010 Indiana Sectional who responded to my "STOP!" signal when he had a squib, but I haven't forgotten how appreciative he was that he and his SV were in one piece and lived to shoot another stage, because the bullet was pretty far down the barrel, and if I hadn't stopped him, it would have been a mess. (and I know what that mess looks like, because I blew up my single stack last year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I was under the impression that once an RO stops a shooter because of a suspected squib or other unsafe condition of the gun, the shooter was done at that point, and would not be allowed to continue even if the shooter was able to make the gun safe to shoot. An RO was telling me today that the 2 minute rule still applies, and the shooter may continue if he/she can clear the squib or otherwise make the gun safe to shoot with in 2 minutes. Is this true? I'm so confused! Stop means done! Actually this is one of the more clear parts of the rule book. The 2 minute rule does not apply once Stop is given. The COF is ended. Thanks. This leads me to my next question. Couldn't the shooter argue that since he/she wasn't given an opportunity to make the gun safe, that he or she is entitled to a reshoot? I could see myself making that argument if an RO stopped me without 1st giving me the opportunity to rectify the problem. Don't get me wrong; I will not hesitate to yell stop when the time comes. I just want to have a clear understanding of the rules. Thanks for your help. Chris Yes, see rule 5.7.7.2: 5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problemdoes not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage. Basically what you're asking is if there is a decent remedy for the RO stopping someone and erring on the side of caution, and the answer is, yes there is, and it is specifically required by the rules. Also, for the record, I don't know the guy who was at the 2010 Indiana Sectional who responded to my "STOP!" signal when he had a squib, but I haven't forgotten how appreciative he was that he and his SV were in one piece and lived to shoot another stage, because the bullet was pretty far down the barrel, and if I hadn't stopped him, it would have been a mess. (and I know what that mess looks like, because I blew up my single stack last year). I guess 5.72 thru 5.74 is where I'm having the problem, but I guess you have to seperate them from 5.77 and 5.771 entirely. I wonder if this has ever come up at a major match. Can you see where my argument would be at all? It seems like the two could conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I was under the impression that once an RO stops a shooter because of a suspected squib or other unsafe condition of the gun, the shooter was done at that point, and would not be allowed to continue even if the shooter was able to make the gun safe to shoot. An RO was telling me today that the 2 minute rule still applies, and the shooter may continue if he/she can clear the squib or otherwise make the gun safe to shoot with in 2 minutes. Is this true? I'm so confused! Stop means done! Actually this is one of the more clear parts of the rule book. The 2 minute rule does not apply once Stop is given. The COF is ended. Thanks. This leads me to my next question. Couldn't the shooter argue that since he/she wasn't given an opportunity to make the gun safe, that he or she is entitled to a reshoot? I could see myself making that argument if an RO stopped me without 1st giving me the opportunity to rectify the problem. Don't get me wrong; I will not hesitate to yell stop when the time comes. I just want to have a clear understanding of the rules. Thanks for your help. Chris Yes, see rule 5.7.7.2: 5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problemdoes not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage. Basically what you're asking is if there is a decent remedy for the RO stopping someone and erring on the side of caution, and the answer is, yes there is, and it is specifically required by the rules. Also, for the record, I don't know the guy who was at the 2010 Indiana Sectional who responded to my "STOP!" signal when he had a squib, but I haven't forgotten how appreciative he was that he and his SV were in one piece and lived to shoot another stage, because the bullet was pretty far down the barrel, and if I hadn't stopped him, it would have been a mess. (and I know what that mess looks like, because I blew up my single stack last year). I guess 5.72 thru 5.74 is where I'm having the problem, but I guess you have to seperate them from 5.77 and 5.771 entirely. I wonder if this has ever come up at a major match. Can you see where my argument would be at all? It seems like the two could conflict. After reading 5.72 thru 5.771 several times I have a better understanding. 5.72 thru 5.74 says nothing about unsafe; it only mentions the word malfunction. Where as 5.77 talks about unsafe conditions. That's the big difference! So, when I am an RO and a shooter trys to argue the rules, I can point out the two key differences between 5.72, and 5.771. The two key words make the big difference.....malfunction, and unsafe. I finally got it! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I don't see any conflict at all. 5.7.7 is with regards to after the RO has given the shooter a STOP command: 5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a "squib" load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. ... 5.7.2 through 5.7.4 is all about allowing the shooter to fix the the problem without the RO stopping them. Essentially, all attempts to fix the malfunction are on the clock and should be done in a safe manner. It's only after 2 minutes mentioned in 5.7.4 that the CoF is terminated. So for example: The RO sees that the shooter has a failure to extract, double feed, or a stop pipe. The RO shouldn't stop the shooter. The shooter should safely try to clear the issue with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and with the trigger finger out of the trigger guard. If the jam can't be cleared in 2 minutes, then the RO should remind the shooter about 5.7.4. On the other hand, if the RO suspects that the shooter fired a squib, the RO should stop the shooter immediately, and check the condition. A reshoot should be ordered if the suspicion was mistaken, otherwise score the stage/string as shot. Edited January 9, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I don't see any conflict at all. 5.7.7 is with regards to after the RO has given the shooter a STOP command: 5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a "squib" load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. ... 5.7.2 through 5.7.4 is all about allowing the shooter to fix the the problem without the RO stopping them. Essentially, all attempts to fix the malfunction are on the clock and should be done in a safe manner. It's only after 2 minutes mentioned in 5.7.4 that the CoF is terminated. So for example: The RO sees that the shooter has a failure to extract, double feed, or a stop pipe. The RO shouldn't stop the shooter. The shooter should safely try to clear the issue with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and with the trigger finger out of the trigger guard. If the jam can't be cleared in 2 minutes, then the RO should remind the shooter about 5.7.4. On the other hand, if the RO suspects that the shooter fired a squib, the RO should stop the shooter immediately, and check the condition. A reshoot should be ordered if the suspicion was mistaken, otherwise score the stage/string as shot. You're absolutly right, and those are two good examples. Sorry, it sometimes takes me a while to come around. I tend to over think things sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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