ErichF Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I think this has gone from a safety discussion to a what-if cheating discussion... If people are gonna cheat, they're gonna cheat. Every safety brief I have been present for acknowledged the fact that regarding safety, all shooters are ROs. If anyone sees something unsafe , they call it out - especially if the RO/CRO is unaware. The game comes second. What some call a "peanut gallery", I call a squad looking out for each other's safety. Maybe I'm just naive, and you guys are just used to having a bunch of cheaters on your squads? Edited December 23, 2011 by ErichF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Conversely... You and I hate each others guts but we end up being squadded together. You're shooting a smokin' fast run and I call out "STOP! SQUIB!"...what then? If I hear somebody yell stop I am going to stop the shooter. There could be somebody on the berm or some other safety issue going on out of my line of sight. That is also only fair to the shooter who probably is going to at least pause if he thinks he heard stop. As for you cheating by yelling stop I think there is a rule for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinosaurMikeGolf Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Conversely... You and I hate each others guts but we end up being squadded together. You're shooting a smokin' fast run and I call out "STOP! SQUIB!"...what then? If I hear somebody yell stop I am going to stop the shooter. There could be somebody on the berm or some other safety issue going on out of my line of sight. That is also only fair to the shooter who probably is going to at least pause if he thinks he heard stop. As for you cheating by yelling stop I think there is a rule for that. Even if there is not a rule concerning cheating by yelling stop, erring on the side of safety justifies the call to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Sarge wrote: ...As for you cheating by yelling stop I think there is a rule for that ... which one would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 ErichF wrote: ...Every safety brief I have been present for acknowledged the fact that regarding safety, all shooters are ROs... as an MD, I would prefer that the peanut gallery left the RO'ing to the guys who are certified RO's, but then I am at a fairly new club with lots of new members....trying to get a Level I RO class/seminar organized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Sarge wrote: ...As for you cheating by yelling stop I think there is a rule for that ... which one would that be? If as an RO I was convinced that is what was going on this is the rule I would cite.... 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 EricF also wrote: Maybe I'm just naive, and you guys are just used to having a bunch of cheaters on your squads?... I wouldn't say naive. Just not as experienced as your seventy-four thousand something member shows. Sorry. You just haven't been around the game long enough to be sitting around at lunch after a match to hear all the sordid details of what some shooters at major matches have pulled. Or to hear about it at an RO class from RO instructors and rangemasters who go around and experience these things first hand. They will be talking about a certain rule in the rulebook and go, "Oh yeah, we call that the "Lance Armstrong rule" because Lance did X at some match Y." And then later on going over another rule, "Yeah, we had to come up with that rule because Tiger Woods was found to be doing this at match Z." we are a gossipey bunch....what can I say? (shrugs shoulders) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 ErichF wrote: ...Every safety brief I have been present for acknowledged the fact that regarding safety, all shooters are ROs... as an MD, I would prefer that the peanut gallery left the RO'ing to the guys who are certified RO's, but then I am at a fairly new club with lots of new members....trying to get a Level I RO class/seminar organized. How about just who are the ROs. Even if you are certified - I don't want you screaming stuff from the gallery, whether I'm the timer or running a crew. I've also had some non-certified people in crews that are often better than ones that are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Sarge wrote: ...As for you cheating by yelling stop I think there is a rule for that ... which one would that be? I think I could make unsportsmanlike conduct stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 We are starting to drift a tad but there are threads around on peanut galleries-RO's etc. Generally I agree that the peanut gallery should not interfere BUT any number of things can happen that may warrant them sounding off. They need to be damn good reasons but I think there are reasons none the less. Of course they are mostly safety related. i.e. somebody walking into the shooting area, somebody peeking over a berm, low flying aircraft, stuff like that. It can happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Sarge, agreed. So, the consensus is no Squib calls from the squad, but sound off if the RO commands make ready with someone still downrange, etc... This thread has been a great education Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 ErichF wrote: ...Every safety brief I have been present for acknowledged the fact that regarding safety, all shooters are ROs... as an MD, I would prefer that the peanut gallery left the RO'ing to the guys who are certified RO's, but then I am at a fairly new club with lots of new members....trying to get a Level I RO class/seminar organized. How about just who are the ROs. Even if you are certified - I don't want you screaming stuff from the gallery, whether I'm the timer or running a crew. I've also had some non-certified people in crews that are often better than ones that are... Yeah, in a way it would be nice if to re-certify your RO-ness was more than just a 10 question, multiple choice, test on the internet. Everybody's volunteers....you get what you pay for. sigh...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 in a way, yeah, I do wish it was a rule requirement for RO's/SO's to have to wear electronic ear muffs....to hear the invisible guy coming back from pasting before issuing the "Make ready!" command and to be able to tell the sound of a squib versus a live round better. but I wouldn't want to force RO/SO's to have to buy electronic muffs out of their own pockets. sigh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 but I wouldn't want to force RO/SO's to have to buy electronic muffs out of their own pockets. I'm buying some Pro Ears next week. I'm using my RO pay I have been saving up all year! Should only cost me a few hundred dollars out of pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I have electronic muffs Pro Ears to exact and I hate wearing them. So if they make it a rule that RO's need to wear them... I will have to just shoot matches and paste targets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nik in agreement here....regardless of what the rules may require for a shooter as an R.O. you're responsible for safety also and safety takes a priority when a shooter through lack of knowledge or experience stands to do himself or others damage if you don't stop him/her because of a suspicion of defective ammo being in his weapon. Anyone that would knowingly stand by and watch while someone struggles to figure out a problem and would then stand back and let that person load and shoot a possibly defective round is making a HUGE mistake and, IMHO, should seriously reconsider ever being an RO at any match. If the injured party later found out that the RO KNEW there was a problem but kept his mouth shut to prevent him from being awarded a reshoot? His lawsuit is already won....just a question of how many zeros are gonna be on that number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 I have electronic muffs Pro Ears to exact and I hate wearing them. So if they make it a rule that RO's need to wear them... I will have to just shoot matches and paste targets! How much you want for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nik in agreement here....regardless of what the rules may require for a shooter as an R.O. you're responsible for safety also and safety takes a priority when a shooter through lack of knowledge or experience stands to do himself or others damage if you don't stop him/her because of a suspicion of defective ammo being in his weapon. Anyone that would knowingly stand by and watch while someone struggles to figure out a problem and would then stand back and let that person load and shoot a possibly defective round is making a HUGE mistake and, IMHO, should seriously reconsider ever being an RO at any match. If the injured party later found out that the RO KNEW there was a problem but kept his mouth shut to prevent him from being awarded a reshoot? His lawsuit is already won....just a question of how many zeros are gonna be on that number. That's a different matter entirely than if the RO didn't know. By the rules, if the RO suspects a squib, he must stop the shooter. The situation you present, the RO KNOWS there was a squib and didn't stop the shooter. It is the RO's duty to stop the shooter if he suspects a squib, and if there is none, then a re-shoot is in order. So, the way I see it, it is the RO's duty, by the rules, to err on the side of safety. If the RO sees a new hole appear in a target, or the round hit the dirt 11 feet in front of the muzzle, he should do nothing, and if the shooter wants to stop and check out everything, well then, that is the shooters perogative. But no re-shoot if the shooter does stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 "So, the way I see it, it is the RO's duty, by the rules, to err on the side of safety." Grumpy One, I think that sums it up...safety first! We'll sort things out after the fact, whether a reshoot is in order, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Sarge wrote: ...As for you cheating by yelling stop I think there is a rule for that ... which one would that be? 10.6.1...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) Nik in agreement here....regardless of what the rules may require for a shooter as an R.O. you're responsible for safety also and safety takes a priority when a shooter through lack of knowledge or experience stands to do himself or others damage if you don't stop him/her because of a suspicion of defective ammo being in his weapon. Anyone that would knowingly stand by and watch while someone struggles to figure out a problem and would then stand back and let that person load and shoot a possibly defective round is making a HUGE mistake and, IMHO, should seriously reconsider ever being an RO at any match. If the injured party later found out that the RO KNEW there was a problem but kept his mouth shut to prevent him from being awarded a reshoot? His lawsuit is already won....just a question of how many zeros are gonna be on that number. If the "club", the Friends of the World Shooting Complex group, or the State of Illinois were to get sued, I will gladly take that stand and testify to the fact that the shooter acknowledged with his puzzled look to the RO that there was a problem with his gun, but went ahead and attempted to fire a live/good round through it anyway, of his own volition, without any guidance or advice from the match staff that, that was an appropriate action to take. Then I will point the plaintiff's lawyer to rule 5.7.4 of the USPSA rulebook that says a shooter has two minutes to clear a malfunction before the Range Officer is obligated by the rulebook to step in. That in those two minutes there a variety of troubleshooting measures that the shooter should have...could have taken...such as dropping a small pebble down the barrel from the muzzle end while the slide is locked back...or by sliding something like a ball point pen again from the muzzle end and watching for it to poke out the breech end before attempting to fire a good live round through it. Our other evidence will be the waiver we have them sign that says explicitly "I understand that handing and shooting firearms is inherently dangerous...." We have already had two cowboy action shooters already shoot themselves out there. One was a teenager who between the loading table and stepping up to shoot his stage for whatever reasons decided to thumb the hammers back on his six guns while they were still in his holsters. He let one hammer go...BANG! that scared the beejeepers out of him, so he let the other hammer go...BANG! IIRC, both bullets entered their respective legs and IIRC, went on through each foot. Another CAS'er had a live round jammed in his lever gun, he took a cleaning rod, inserted it through the muzzle end and tried to hammer it out. All that did was press the primer into the firing pin which was exposed. Lever gun goes BANG! cleaning rod goes through the CAS'er's hand. Who got sued? Nobody. Edited December 24, 2011 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 We have already had two cowboy action shooters already shoot themselves out there. One was a teenager who between the loading table and stepping up to shoot his stage for whatever reasons decided to thumb the hammers back on his six guns while they were still in his holsters. He let one hammer go...BANG! that scared the beejeepers out of him, so he let the other hammer go...BANG! IIRC, both bullets entered their respective legs and IIRC, went on through each foot. Another CAS'er had a live round jammed in his lever gun, he took a cleaning rod, inserted it through the muzzle end and tried to hammer it out. All that did was press the primer into the firing pin which was exposed. Lever gun goes BANG! cleaning rod goes through the CAS'er's hand. It makes absolutely no difference whether they were CAS shooters, or USPSA shooters, or ..... shooters. Unsafe shooters invite themselves to every discipline, How quickly they are ferreted out is the only concern. You've got a sharp eye. Spot 'em early. Correct the behavior or bear the burden of their involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 My point being...they didn't go all "woohoo! lawsuit lottery! cha ching$$" on the state and took responsibility for their own actions, and didn't feel the need to pass the blame onto somebody else for their....well....incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 such as dropping a small pebble down the barrel from the muzzle end while the slide is locked back...or by sliding something like a ball point pen again from the muzzle end and watching for it to poke out the breech end before attempting to fire a good live round through it. Chills I really don't mean to continually be at odds with you but it has been pretty much universally accepted that you can't put anything down a muzzle without sweeping yourself. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 such as dropping a small pebble down the barrel from the muzzle end while the slide is locked back...or by sliding something like a ball point pen again from the muzzle end and watching for it to poke out the breech end before attempting to fire a good live round through it. Chills I really don't mean to continually be at odds with you but it has been pretty much universally accepted that you can't put anything down a muzzle without sweeping yourself. Just sayin'. Kinda what I was thinking too. From the breech end, yes.... Muzzle end, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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