3 Gun Nation Tour 2012

[smokshwn]

It's no longer our game...you will be assimilated.

You are looking at this from a very bad perspective. 3 Gun Nation is actively creating a format to grow every bit of 3 Gun at all levels. The analogy of professional racing would apply. The chances of a regular guy to race Formula 1 is absolutely miniscule. But the excitement and fanfare of the huge race series' provide for all the little guys riding/driving/working the smaller tracks around the world. You can be guaranteed that without the exposure that the big companies get from National/International TV exposure they surely wouldn't give a nickel to the smaller exposure that exists at the everyman level.

This move initiates 3 Gun Nation as a stand alone portion of 3 Gun. Which in turn limits

Outerlimits you got that right!!

The format was fine and fair for everyone, there was a equal chance for pro,novice, rookie, junior, handicapped, lame, blind and dumb to earn a spot in the final shootout the way it was.

No it actually wasn't all that fair as the inability to compare different division winners created a situation that made it impossible to have parity. There were also many problems in coordinating 3GN needs with multiple different match directors and rulesets. Just one example, many here have complained long and loud about the camera intrusion, shootoff delays, etc etc....this eliminates that from 7 of the 10 matches that were effected last year.

I think one of the coolest things that came from this season was seeing Rustin B the rookie come in and put some extra excitment into the shootout and points race. The guy burned down the series and was a underdog. Thats what makes 3 gun exciting not knowing who the next underdog to come into the game will be.

There is still a provision for a new competitor to come from the ranks. As to Rustin B being an underdog he was ranked 36th overall this season, hardly an underdog (Hannish was 38th BTW and he was the runnerup). He also shot 5or 6 of the 10 available matches, again hardly an outside competitor.

From my view of this I dont feel that the 3GN series is in the best interest of all the shooters of this sport anymore.

See my reply to Butch's comments above. Yes it's different and changing from the last two years but it is a necessary step to that raises the tip of the pyramid thus creating a wider base.

Personally some of the machinations will effect the way I choose my season in a manner I would have not chosen for myself. But the bigger picture available to us at this point is the very thing folks have talked about having since I have been in this sport. If 2012's season serves to develop a completely independent stand alone 3 Gun Nation Pro Race in 2013, we then have the very best of both worlds. 12-14 great National level events (SMM3G, RM3G, Ozark, FBTG, MGM, etc etc) and the ability of the sponsors and manufacturers in our sport to showcase themselves on National TV. If you think this will not significantly increase the participation at local and regional levels as well as the total amount of $$$$ flowing into the sport, I think you are being very shortsighted.

[mr50mag]

smokshwn,

Thank you for that well thought out response. I know I could not have said it any better.

Rob

[DyNo!]

We know some people intentionally shot divisions with less competitors and less competition to earn more points

Which divisions would those be?

(Ones without top competitors)

Also, the number of competitors plays no part in ranking - it is the difference between 100% and the next person down.

[MarkCO]

The other thing to think about, that most people seem to be missing, the "Pros" now have the opportunity (or maybe will be forced to) compete in more matches. For some, it won't be possible so they will choose 3GN Pro series or the divisional series. I've already heard from, or seen post at least a handful that are not going to run the "Pro" series even though they qualified. In essence, at least by 2013, there will be 5 or 6 additional matches. That means greater opportunity for some threshold guys to place near the top since the top 64 will get spread out a little. For all the people that have been complaining and whining about 3GN, in 2013, they will be totally "out of your hair". The Outlaw matches will drift back to the way they were 2 years ago and this new 3GNPro series multiplies the opportunity.

I never ran a single NASCAR race in the "Cup" series, but I loved the opportunity to win a class, then move up and compete in a bigger pond and every time I got a new comeptition license, I smiled. Yep, there will be growing pains. No, everyone won't be happy (they were not before 3GN), but overall, I sure hope it works out well.

[45shooter]

We all know that in each division the top shooters are great. And the top shooters in each division can compete against anyone in any other division. But some divisions like tac ops have a much deeper pool. I think the fair way is to do it by divisions then at the end of the year have the winner from each of the divisions shoot it out. I also don't think it is fair to ask guys that don't shoot tac ops to leave the division they like to shoot in just to be involved in 3 GN. It all comes down to there not being a perfect way to do it. I shoot tac ops but feel it doesn't seem fair to some in the other divisions

Edited January 29, 2012 by 45shooter

[NOMADSS]

smokshwn I can agree with some of what you have said as well as totally disagree with alot as well. It in turn it is a matter of opinion and what way you want to look at this.

In the end I hope that it works out as planned but in my 21 years of competitive shooting I have gone thru this before. I used the same race analogy in the past and 100% agree with the example.

I understand that there has to be a cut and a line in the sand drawn somewhere. You either make it or you dont and thats the way it has to be. I get it and can accept it and I am ok with it.

What I dont understand is why is the line so low 64? How did this magic number get picked? I can see this in some of the other shooting sports where the stages and range restrictions dont allow this. But 3 gun matches can run 200-250 people thru a weekend. If you want to cut it down some then you can run 125 shooters at invitational and still accomplish the same thing.

Having a larger pool to start from like 125 shooters allows alot of shaking and moving among the so called pro class as well as allows a larger pool of new, up in coming and guys on the edge a chance to break into the Pro catagory and shake things up. I guess as future info comes out and is available maybe the magic 64 number will make more sense to me. But with the amount of shooters participating in 3 Gun I truely feel that the number is to LOW.

As for Rustin B. I would bet 90% of the people here didnt have a clue who he was until the middle of this season. I shot with him multiple times in 2010 when he started and new he was going to be among the big guns. So yes he was ranked 36th at the end of this season but no one would have placed money on his name being in the final 8 when the season started so yes he was a long shot and was able to break into the sport as a virtual unknown this season. His performance this season inspired alot of shooters showing that if you put the time and effort in you can reach the Pro level in the blink of a eye.

The way this is laid out now I dont see how anyone could do what he did. I just dont see it possible.

As for making it equal among all the classes. You are right it would never happen. Tac Optics is the most dominate, popular, and toughest class in 3 gun. So thats why the 3GN runs the way it does and pulls everyone in and forces them to shoot Tac Optics Gear. Also if that wasnt the case why would they stucture this Pro series off of it. I dont see why 60 shooters should move from Tac Optics to shoot Open or some other class when 4 can move to Tac Optics.

Look at the rankings of the other classes 20-30 shooters at most in them. Guys ranked in top 10 with only 2 matches for points in 3GN final standings. This shows me that the interest in these classes is very low to almost none existant.

As for more matches and filling them- if you put on a match they will fill period. The sport has been growing rapidly prior to 3GN and it will grow even more with them or without them. The fact that shooters are willing to travel and spend the money we do to shoot these matches proves it. Plus add to the fact so many sponsors are stepping up and supporting already shows you that they are gettibg a great return on there investment. In the end its US the shooters spreading the word and bringing new shooters on board to shoot 3 gun which is growing the sport. I can assure you that every 3 gun shooter out there intruduced 1-2 new shooters into the sport because the fun and excitement it offers. So 3 gun is a snow ball rolling down hill and at full speed.

So in the end 3GN should be looking for ways to bring more guys to the firing line allowing more opportunities to do what we do SHOOT and compete and battle it out in the trenches. Having as many people fight it out at every match for points working to be in that magic number that starts the shoot out at the end of the year is what the season should be about. Not put 90% of the shooters in the stands watching 10% of the guys hooking and jabbing! If you are content to sit and watch the others shoot and dont want to be part of the action then its time to retire.

The way the 2011 season ran points wise left it open for everyone to battle and in the end the best was left standing which was Tommy. You got to choose your poison of what class you wanted and you chose your path.

The other side of the coin many fail to see already is that the Pro side also has the best of both worlds and everyone else is stuck between a rock and hard place.

The pro's are still going to shoot their normal 3 gun classes for points and battle it out for the end of year money bonuses. Then all switch to Tac Optics for the 3GN Pro battle. So the therory that the Pro's will have their fun while the rest of us battle it out for the few spots for the 2013 roster and free up the other matches spots for the upcoming guys to make a mark isnt going to happen.

The fact is if you build it they will come. Thats the natural of the beast if you like to shoot and have the time you will shoot every match you can no matter what.

I have been wrong before and I am going to be wrong many more times in my life but this is how I am seeing the big picture as it is being laid out right now. Right, wrong or indifferent in opinion I know that the 3 gun community is a great group of people to shoot with and I am never amazed at how many people in this country have so much talent, ability, and are truely dedicated to helping and working with each other to grow this sport.

I guess only time will tell!!

[smokshwn]

Tony,

I'm thinkin we are both seeing many of the same things.

The number at 64 ? to my understanding was to accomodate a one day format that would be friendly to filming and production needs for TV.

As for the final 8....I don't think anyone would have picked that final 8 given the point standings. There were only 3 shootoff contenders from the top 20 and Strader was 60th in points! 4 of the 8 were in the 20-40th range. Not to mention, if you look at it realistically the final 8 in 2010 and 2011 were picked only from those able to attend one match each year, the 3GN Finale. In other words the points race played a very secondary role to how you placed in that one match, not a series.

I agree this may or may not have the desired effects, however the process and formula have proven themselves before in other sports. Personally I like the chances that 3GN has as I know the people and I know the amount of effort and work they are putting forth. I can do nothing but wish them the best and put my shoulder on their wheel when I get the chance.

[Lead-Head]

If you want to infer answers to questions about why 3GN set-up this series, it becomes easier when you remember it is a TV show. making the best TV show they can, and selling it to as many sposnors, networks, best time slots, as possible.

A TV show that until recently you had to get up at 0730 in the morning to watch, and has only produced a dozen episodes, has dclared itself the sanctioning body for this sport. Not because they knew the most about 3-gun, but because they have shown some capacity for putting faces on TV and convincing sponsors that this will sell some product. Hey,marketing is a talent too, and I appreciate business is business.

3gun was growing on it's own, and someone in show business noticed. Let's hope we don't whore it out and make compromises that alliente those who were involved in it's success in the first place.

[Howard762]

And the mighty kings did summon the peasants and tell them "you may slog through the mud to run our timers and clipboards and through the searing heat to set our steel and paste our targets as we partake in glorious battle to win fabulous wealth and seek glory, but remember that you must never dream to rise above your station. We were chosen to be royalty in the year of our Lord 2012 and you will serve as our lowly serfs for eternity."

[Jesse Tischauser]

Tony,

I'm thinkin we are both seeing many of the same things.

The number at 64 ? to my understanding was to accomodate a one day format that would be friendly to filming and production needs for TV.

As for the final 8....I don't think anyone would have picked that final 8 given the point standings. There were only 3 shootoff contenders from the top 20 and Strader was 60th in points! 4 of the 8 were in the 20-40th range. Not to mention, if you look at it realistically the final 8 in 2010 and 2011 were picked only from those able to attend one match each year, the 3GN Finale. In other words the points race played a very secondary role to how you placed in that one match, not a series.

I agree this may or may not have the desired effects, however the process and formula have proven themselves before in other sports. Personally I like the chances that 3GN has as I know the people and I know the amount of effort and work they are putting forth. I can do nothing but wish them the best and put my shoulder on their wheel when I get the chance.

Werd! The popularity of 3 gun is crazy right now. Every match we have new shooters and every few months I hear of a new match popping up. Heck I am shooting my 4th club match this month today. When I first posted on this forum in 2009 I couldn't find a 3 gun match within 5 hours from OKC.

[sdm74]

And the mighty kings did summon the peasants and tell them "you may slog through the mud to run our timers and clipboards and through the searing heat to set our steel and paste our targets as we partake in glorious battle to win fabulous wealth and seek glory, but remember that you must never dream to rise above your station. We were chosen to be royalty in the year of our Lord 2012 and you will serve as our lowly serfs for eternity."

Lmao

[NOMADSS]

I hear you. I am also sure they spent many hours pouring over all the pro's and con's and putting it in place in order to find the common ground.

I have enjoyed 3GN, I have watched and supported every shootout at every match I have attended as well as the finale. It has been good exposure for the sport, the industry and the shooters. I am sure it will continue down that path as well.

[smokshwn]

And the mighty kings did summon the peasants and tell them "you may slog through the mud to run our timers and clipboards and through the searing heat to set our steel and paste our targets as we partake in glorious battle to win fabulous wealth and seek glory, but remember that you must never dream to rise above your station. We were chosen to be royalty in the year of our Lord 2012 and you will serve as our lowly serfs for eternity."

What a poor attitude. Martyr yourself much?

I am not sure if you are referring to being under appreciated as an RO or if you are seeing yourself as treated poorly by fellow shooters, either way I will address both.

RO

Is there some magical match out there where competitors are served refreshing fruit while being cooled by palm fronds, all the while enjoying the spectacle of the RO's taping and resetting for their further enjoyment? If so where is it, cuz that sounds awesome (sarcasm intended).

On the contrary every match I have ever attended required the competitors to do their share of taping, resetting, and even timing and scoring when necessary. With very few exceptions I have seen nothing but gratitude displayed by shooters toward the RO's and Match Staff. To have someone make the false accusation otherwise is simply offensive.

Shooting

I shoot quite actively and have attended at least 20 National level matches and numerous local/regional matches the last three years, so it would be safe to say my exposure level to the behavior and attitudes of fellow shooters is pretty broad. As a rule, I am proud of the camaraderie and helpfulness consistently displayed from shooter to shooter. Rarely does a match go by that sharing guns, gear, parts, or assistance isn't the norm. And I have yet to see a new shooter not be welcomed and given more well intended advice and help than they need. Is there an occasional bobble? sure. But to suggest some pervasive attitude of superiority exists and results in general maltreatment of fellow shooters is simply a ridiculously false accusation made in poor taste.

Speaking for myself, I resent your comments. Speaking for my fellow shooters you're completely out of line.

Edited January 29, 2012 by smokshwn

[Lead-Head]

I can only speak for myself. That is all anyone can do in a format like this and hold any credebility.

I thought what Howard762 posted was wierd, but I did not think he was doing more than expressing the same frustration and disenfranchisment many of us feel, as per previous posts on this string and other strings. He was only speaking, as far as I could tell, for himself. The situation we are in where small portion of the 3-gun comunity is speaking for and governing everyone else is part of the rub.

His wierd poetic/biblical WTH reference was no more condescending than some of the rehtoric form the other side of the argument. Satire is a form of protest. Always has been.

[Howard762]

If I add "sarcasm intended" would that make it less offensive? I don't intend to offend anyone just offer my opinion. Perhaps my tone was a little too harsh, but I resent the new system. I prefer a system like last year where anyone can work hard enough and make a name for themselves not one where they have to be preordained, or wait an entire year for one chance where one equipment failure may cost you another entire year.

Congratualtions to the top 64, but who will do the brunt of the work? The middle classes have always done the majority of the work in the shooting sports if for no other reason than there are so many more of us. If we are not allowed to shoot matches will we still be expected to work them?

Lead-head, Thanks for speaking up for the 1st ammendment. Satire is exactly where that post came from. Kind of Monty Python I think. Like the directions for the holy hand grenade. Frustration and disenfranchisement is exactly what myself and many of the shooters I've talked to feel.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Howard762

[smokshwn]

If I add "sarcasm intended" would that make it less offensive? I don't intend to offend anyone just offer my opinion. Perhaps my tone was a little too harsh, but I resent the new system. I prefer a system like last year where anyone can work hard enough and make a name for themselves not one where they have to be preordained, or wait an entire year for one chance where one equipment failure may cost you another entire year.

I got your sarcasm, but I'm not aware that sarcasm somehow negates insult.

How exactly do you think the top 64 became the top 64? They were magically chosen for their good looks? picked out of piles of fairy dust pooped by unicorns?

Oh wait a minute I know, they worked their asses off for years before 3GN even existed shooting, practicing, match directing, RO'ing, buying industry products, making products, working sponsors to support the sport, writing rules etc etc etc. To erroneously suggest that somehow they haven't contributed their fair share to the sport is a complete failure to recognize their contributions.

How does this format eliminate the ability of any given shooter to work hard and make their mark? There are still 10+- national level matches to win as well as too many regional/local matches to garner recognition from. And fancy this, they're all the same matches we had before, weird huh? Not mention, this pro series is for 2012, rewarding those individuals who performed in 2011. As the Divisional races and qualifying match occur in 2012, those who choose can do the work necessary to make the PRO Series for 2013.

If anything this new format eliminates the problems involved with the TV format for most of the matches. Yes the Pro series will involve only those invited to the series. But every shooter will now have the option to compete in the 3GN Divisional (Open, Lim, HM, etc), Club, and Category(Lady Jr.) series. To a large extent participation in these series will be transparent to the matches as it will not be necessary for match directors to make accommodations for 3GN but rather simply report scores and finishing order so that those shooters who have opted to participate in the series can be awarded the appropriate points. For those shooters who opt not to participate the matches will not change one whit.

Congratualtions to the top 64, but who will do the brunt of the work? The middle classes have always done the majority of the work in the shooting sports if for no other reason than there are so many more of us. If we are not allowed to shoot matches will we still be expected to work them?

Brunt of the work? Assuming this theory that the middle classes do most of the work is true, how can you ignore that all the "upper classes" had to pass through the middle on their way to the top. With very few exceptions in this sport you would be hard pressed to find an example of a top shooter who did not progress through your "middle".

Expectation of work? Again with martyring yourself. I haven't received my list of duties or expectations from 3GN yet, have you? If so what are they asking of you?

I am unaware of any match that forces anyone to staff the match. Match staff is crucial and in my experience greatly appreciated by shooters of all levels. But it is hardly a compulsory expectation of any participant.

Lead-head, Thanks for speaking up for the 1st ammendment. Satire is exactly where that post came from. Kind of Monty Python I think. Like the directions for the holy hand grenade. Frustration and disenfranchisement is exactly what myself and many of the shooters I've talked to feel.

I don't recall attacking the 1st Amendment, quite the contrary, I was using it as well. It's a two way street that can just as easily be used to point out the errors in thought as express them.

With respect to resentment and disenfranchisement, on what grounds?

If you are invited to the PRO series and don't want to participate, don't.

If you don't like 3GN fine, and don't want to participate in the Divisional, Club, or Category Races, don't. You are still able to participate in 3 gun without any change whatsoever. You can attend those matches you want, shoot the divisions you choose and go merrily on your way.

However, if you are not in the PRO series and want to be, you simply have to work your ass off like the PRO's, shoot in the matches you can and garner the points necessary to qualify for the PRO series in 2013.

Simply put, there is no downside for anyone who just wants to shoot 3 Gun, only the upside of the sport garnering more exposure, more resources, more participants, and more momentum. Hardly something to be resentful over.

Edited January 29, 2012 by smokshwn

[Birdman821]

How exactly do you think the top 64 became the top 64? They were magically chosen for their good looks? picked out of piles of fairy dust pooped by unicorns?

If you are talking about The Mayor, then yes, it was based on his good looks.

[ALBY]

Greg Jordan finished way up there in the 3gn stats and you have to wonder where a shooter like that would end up under these rules going forward.

Edited January 29, 2012 by ALBY

[ALBY]

I was amazed by one non sponsored shooter on my stage at the FNH match. He was a limited shooter and he tried to get us to paint the long range targets. I regarded him as a special snoflake and potential kook, that is, until he cleaned my stage with a dot in one of the most amazing rifle runs I had ever witnessed. And the guy was top 10 for the match. I like that guys like this had a shot to win it all.

[smokshwn]

Greg Jordan finished way up there in the 3gn stats and you have to wonder where a shooter like that would end up under these rules going forward.

Assuming Greg started shooting this year (2012) and participated in either the Divisional races or the upcoming qualifying match, his past performance would indicate that he would most likely receive an invite to the PRO Series for 2013.

I'm not sure where the idea that the door is closed on the PRO Series going forward. It is simply incorrect.

From 3GN's FB page

QUESTION: What does that 3GN Pro Series do to the rest of us who shoot 3-Gun competitions? Are you change the 3Gun for Pros only?

ANSWER: Nope! We have divisional series for all the equipment divisions, and we are launching a national club series this year as well! All this IN ADDITION TO the Pro Series. Also, in 2013 we will provide a qualification system for newcommers to qualify for the Pro Series who were outside the top 64 for 2011.

Edited January 29, 2012 by smokshwn

[sdm74]

Greg Jordan finished way up there in the 3gn stats and you have to wonder where a shooter like that would end up under these rules going forward.

Assuming Greg started shooting this year (2012) and participated in either the Divisional races or the upcoming qualifying match, his past performance would indicate that he would most likely receive an invite to the PRO Series for 2013.

Yes 1 match, for all the marbles. That is if you can somehow beat out the hundreds of others trying to get on the list for that one match. I predict that one match sells out in less then a day. And like howard said, hope you don't have a malfunction, which im sure every top competitor did at one point or another last year, I hope its not at that "1" match.

[smokshwn]

Greg Jordan finished way up there in the 3gn stats and you have to wonder where a shooter like that would end up under these rules going forward.

Assuming Greg started shooting this year (2012) and participated in either the Divisional races or the upcoming qualifying match, his past performance would indicate that he would most likely receive an invite to the PRO Series for 2013.

Yes 1 match, for all the marbles. That is if you can somehow beat out the hundreds of others trying to get on the list for that one match. I predict that one match sells out in less then a day. And like howard said, hope you don't have a malfunction, which im sure every top competitor did at one point or another last year, I hope its not at that "1" match.

Did you even read the above posts containing the information that there will be a path through the Divisional races as well, or do you just want to continue believing your false assumption, factual information be damned?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Can't wait to see a list of the top 64; just hope it's based solely on performance and not sponsorship or popularity.

Really hope this new format works, but it must have a solid (fair) foundation with no perception of favoritism.

[smokshwn]

Can't wait to see a list of the top 64; just hope it's based solely on performance and not sponsorship or popularity.

Really hope this new format works, but it must have a solid (fair) foundation with no perception of favoritism.

Here's the list of overall standings.

http://3gunnation.com/the_series/standings/s/overall_standings

Don't forget shooters can opt in or out of the PRO Series so most likely the names will go much deeper than 64.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Can't wait to see a list of the top 64; just hope it's based solely on performance and not sponsorship or popularity.

Really hope this new format works, but it must have a solid (fair) foundation with no perception of favoritism.

Here's the list of overall standings.

http://3gunnation.com/the_series/standings/s/overall_standings

Don't forget shooters can opt in or out of the PRO Series so most likely the names will go much deeper than 64.

Thanks for the link, I've actually looked at it a couple times since the announcement was made. I thought the top 64 list was composed of those who competed in T/O Division exclusively.

Or is it the top 64 on the list, regardless of Division they competed in?

Thanks again.