Pigeon Flippers

[Phil Dunlop]

I made up a couple of flippers, and we have great fun incorporating them into our club shoots, trouble is, whenever I practice, I cannot make shooting the birds worth the effort.

For example, I often set up a 2 flipper (USP) one USP short course, for 5 shots total.

Even scoring 10 points for the clay, I cannot better the hit factors from just ignoring the disappearing targets.

Has anyone found a way of making them a 'must shoot'?

thanks P.D.

[Bronco]

Since the flipped clays are a disappering target and scored as a nonpenalty mike if missed they do present a COF dilemma. What I've seen done that seems to reward taking a shot at them is to give them a time value if hit. Three seconds off has been the norm. Also try giving the shooter another target to engage while waiting on the clay deploy.

[rhino]

I don't think it will be easy motivating the hard core competitors to engage them. Raising the "bonus" might be the only way, perhaps with the time reward as mentioned by Bronco, or by considering them worth multiple 10-pt steel hits.

I can see a strong case for making the worth 20 or 30 points, because they are a lot harder to hit than stationary steel or clays. Call each aerial target three disappearing 10-pt targets in the description and you might get more takers.

People like me are going to engage them because it's FUN. I've only seen them once (last Sunday), and I missed miserably, but it was a fun challenge and I'd gladly try again, even if it didn't "pay" in terms of my hit factor.

[james h]

personally i hate them because as an RO i have to either give the hit or PROVE a miss by showing an intact clay to the shooter....after it has hit the ground!

cue arguments

if you must use them why not make the flipper activate a delayed target exposure as well so they have to stand still and wait so they might as well have a bang at the clay.

j

[David Benzick]

Phil,

You have to have more targets to engage on the ground while the birds are launching. Add another USP or two. Even better is to have three flippers in an array so the shooter can clean the ground stuff and pick up a quick 15 points on the birds on their way down. Just give your shooters something to do while the birds are launching.

Dave

[mike.45]

Under IPSC and USPSA shotgun rules there is an automatic procedual penalty for not engaging a target and a miss if its missed, hence two penalties for one.

I think this includes dissapearing ones.....James or Neil b will shoot me down in flames if I am wrong about this one, but the only way is to make the penalty so severe that shooters have no option but to give it a go and that is what i think they had in mind by introducing this.

[Neil Beverley]

Phil is correct. There isn't enough of a differential to justify shooting them. Actually if you add in the risk factor of firing the shot and missing then you are better to leave them.

I'll look into upping the value of disappearing clays next time round. They can be fun and can add something to a course of fire but there must be a justification to shoot them.

I messed with some numbers and found the following general figures (with clays declared value at 10 points [Rule 9.4.1.1]) :

On Short courses if it takes you 1.0 seconds to shoot the clay you lose points and if you shoot it in 0.8 seconds you have a marginal gain up to about 7 targets in total.

On a Long Course, say 18 targets total and allowing 1 second to load an extra round (for the clay) and 1 second to shoot it then there is probably a small but minimal gain, perhaps 3-4 points. If you load and shoot quicker than 1.0/1.0 then a further small gain.

Dave's idea may help but it's not just the waiting for the release that adds time. The shooter still has to break from low level to high level engagement and track the bird, shoot it and then perhaps move on. A flying clay will always take longer compared to a static target within an array at the usual height range.

It would be better to build in a delayed exposure of a target that has to be shot. The waiting time can then be used to shoot the clay before returning to the other target. This could even be created by using a penalty target that is slow to expose a scoring target behind.

Otherwise an optional value of 15 or maybe even 20 points will be needed to make them properly attractive to shoot.

James, I understand your concerns, but I don't think we should eliminate flying clays just because of the scoring issue. It's no different to any major clay match. The RO has to call it as they see it and the competitors have to accept the decision.

It's either that or abandon them.

[Neil Beverley]

Under IPSC and USPSA shotgun rules there is an automatic procedual penalty for not engaging a target and a miss if its missed, hence two penalties for one. 

I think this includes dissapearing ones.....James or Neil b will shoot me down in flames if I am wrong about this one, but the only way is to make the penalty so severe that shooters have no option but to give it a go and that is what i think they had in mind by introducing this.

Mike

Sorry! You are going to crash and burn on this one, see 9.9.2 below.

9.9.1 Moving targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.5).

9.9.2 Moving targets, which do not comply with the above criteria, will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

[Neil Beverley]

I would add to my earlier post that it is better to leave the clay on high hit factor stages. Providing you can slow the stage down then the clay becomes more viable,

e.g.

7 hits out of 8 (by ignoring the clay) in say 4.5 seconds = HF 35/4.5 = 7.77

8 hits out of 8 (by shooting the clay) in say 5.5 seconds = HF 45/5.5 = 8.18

but if

7 hits out of 8 (by ignoring the clay) in say 3.5 seconds = HF 35/3.5 = 10.0

8 hits out of 8 (by shooting the clay) in say 4.5 seconds = HF 45/4.5 = 10.0

and finally

7 hits out of 8 (by ignoring the clay) in say 3.0 seconds = HF 35/3.0 = 11.66

8 hits out of 8 (by shooting the clay) in say 4.0 seconds = HF 45/4.0 = 11.25

So, Phil, while it doesn't make them a "must shoot", if you declare them to be worth 10 points and only include them in stages designed to have low(ish) HF then at least there is some merit in going for them.

[jhgtyre]

A thin piece of hard cover or a no shoot that the clay passes behind on its way up could be used to create multiple exposures thus invoking 9.9.1 couldn't it?

-ld

[Phil Dunlop]

Thanks for the replies, I take your point Neil, perhaps forcing movement to see an activating plate might just do it, I'll have a play on the weekend.

The flippers are awesome fun and they have been a complete sucess running them in a side shoot scoring only the fastest clean run, but that aint IPSC.

I love to shoot them, just wish I could hit them more consistently, (we launch minis using one of those thick ventilated exhaust hangers laid flat at the popper end of the pivot. They go a hell of a way in the air.

I know in a match many will shoot them anyway, but so far for the gamers they are a waste of time.

Cheers, P.D.

[Singlestack]

personally i hate them because as an RO i have to either give the hit or PROVE a miss by showing an intact clay to the shooter....after it has hit the ground!

cue arguments

Are you saying a competitor would game a course of fire by shooting an extra shot in the general direction of a flying frangible target he knew was going to be broken when the stage is scored thereby making it impossible to say that one pellet did not hit it?

[Neil Beverley]

A thin piece of hard cover or a no shoot that the clay passes behind on its way up could be used to create multiple exposures thus invoking 9.9.1 couldn't it?

-ld

Sorry! A good try but it doesn't work.

9.9.1 Moving targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.5).

[double down]

personally i hate them because as an RO i have to either give the hit or PROVE a miss by showing an intact clay to the shooter....after it has hit the ground!

cue arguments

Since you're shooting a clay target I would follow the rules used in clay games. Most of the time the trapper or scorer determine the break. If you want to challenge the call you can petition the shooters in the squad.

I cannot think of any case in trap, skeet, or sporting clays where you get to go look and see if the target broke. You must break it in clear view or it's a lost target. You'll see a lot of targets that are hit but don't break, tough luck. Hit it cleaner or tighten up the choke!

[warpspeed]

phil,

In order to get them to shoot at the clay, it is a matter of course design.

For my money, 10 pts is reason enough.

At the last 3 gun I went to, they had a 5 popper aray set up with 2 of them thowing clay strait up. Most of the GM & M guys were going after the clay and they were only worth 5 pts! The reason was that they could activate the clay popper and while waiting for the bird to fly, engage one of the other poppers that did not have a clay bird attached to it.

[Phil Dunlop]

Warpspeed,

not sure if they did the maths, but on my 2 flippers 1 USP stage, the 3 steel are down in about 1.30-4 secs, for a hit factor of about 11.

My best run, hitting the flipped clays too is a 2.79, for a factor of 12.5. (at 10pts a clay, at 5 pts that would be a H/F of 9! ) but, its easy to miss a bird and then factor plunges.

In a match its a no brainer for me, but I will try adding movement to lower the factors and make the clays more attractive.

P.D.

[warpspeed]

On this stage, there were 140 pts available, not counting clays, Winning hf was 3.9 open, 3.3 limited.

[Phil Dunlop]

Low factor stages like that, especially long courses, I'd have to concider the time I'd save on the reload by not engaging the flippers.

[Neil Beverley]

If we assume that the winning HF of 3.9 included shooting the clays then it calculates as 150 points in 38.46 seconds.

If we allow a generous 1 second per round to load (x2) and 1 second per clay to shoot then by not going for them we have 140/34.46 = 4.06 hf. A small improvement by not shooting them worth 6 points .

In reality the actual time saved for a top shooter would probably only be 3 seconds total so 140/35.46 = 3.95 hf. With the risk involved in a miss I would leave them. There is no gain to be had.

However, if scored at 10 points each then there are about 8 points to be picked up on the stage.

[jkmccoy]

Actually, the perceived problem is part of the allure of the pigeon flippers. On a very short course it may indeed be advantageous to not shoot at the aerial clays. But, if you include the pigeon flippers on a long field course (low HF) and place them in target arrays where the shooter has other targets to engage while waiting for the pigeons to appear it becomes a much more interesting stage.

There may not be a clear advantage to shooting/not shooting the pigeons. That just makes it interesting. Do you shoot them? Do you leave them? How quick can you load those extra rounds?

We've used pigeon flippers in one stage at each of the last two Texas State 3-Gun matches. Both times they were in a long field course. Both times the pigeon flippers were in a target array that gave shooters other things to engage while waiting for the pigeons to appear. Both years we had some shooters engage the clays, and some shooters ignore them. We had good scores both ways.

The fun is in making the decision. Having a stage that can be shot in different ways with no clear advantage is my ultimate goal in stage design. FREESTYLE!!!

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

West Texas

[warpspeed]

Actually, the perceived problem is part of the allure of the pigeon flippers. On a very short course it may indeed be advantageous to not shoot at the aerial clays. But, if you include the pigeon flippers on a long field course (low HF) and place them in target arrays where the shooter has other targets to engage while waiting for the pigeons to appear it becomes a much more interesting stage.

Thats what I was trying to say

[George]

Call em 10 point targets and load two clays on the flippers if you want to see some takers in speed shoots, otherwise they do indeed work best as part of a larger array in a field course.

--

Regards.

[ErikW]

Do IPSC shotgun rules and/or the new USPSA multigun rules allow you to declare a frangible target as worth ten points?

When I encountered those things at hit-factor matches I always got busy with other targets in between the flippers and the clays, then I always missed the clays. At SMM3G, they were -3 seconds bonus targets and I carefully shot flipper-clay, flipper-clay, and so on.

[Neil Beverley]

Do IPSC shotgun rules and/or the new USPSA multigun rules allow you to declare a frangible target as worth ten points?

Erik

We introduced the new rule below this year. I am fairly certain that the USPSA rules will read the same. Indeed, with the exeption of the Divisions and other already known changes, the USPSA shotgun and rifle rules should be very similar to the new IPSC rules.

9.4.1.1 In order to recognize a difficult shot in a course of fire, a small number of metal and/or frangible targets may score double value for a hit. The use of such targets is restricted to not more than 10% of the total number of targets in the match. Their use must have been approved during the course review process and they must be clearly identified in the written stage briefing.