Sean Gaines Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 So it's OK for a major manufacture to state their pistols have a 500 round break in period, but not OK for a hand fit custom to possibly need one? 2011's are kind of a special circumstance because of the fickle nature of the magazines. The gunsmith may have his own personal magazine that he KNOWS works, uses it to test his guns, sends gun to customer who uses mags that may or may not work, customer has issues with it, never gives 'smith a chance to resolve issue (real or not), slams gunsmith on every forum he has access too. It's a story I've heard many times. It's even better when the story involves a FREE prize table gun. I look at guns like cars. Every once in a while a lemon sneaks off the line, it's what the builder does after the sale that matters to me. The gun should run, out of the box, but if there is an issue and the builder takes care of it it should not be a black eye. I've had to tune guns to run a very specific type of ammo. If I had not known ahead of time about the ammo, there is a good chance they would not have run very well, or would have had a very short life span. Just food for thought. I agree with shaun What matters, is what your gunsmith does when or if your gun has a hiccup. A good gunsmith knows that platform in and out, and should be able to get you a gun running 100% from the get go. But at the same time he is human, and he is dealing with a mechanical item, with many variables. If a custom gun didn't run 100% out of the box, I would look at the issue and not what the fact that it didn't run 100%. If it is something that all gunsmiths should do, and wasn't done that caused the malfuntion, than yeah I would be pretty upset. but if the gun is just too tight and needs a few hundred rounds to ensure the slide to frame is perfect, and he tells me, that it might jam up during the intial break in period. I don't mind that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'll add this to my terse (but still accurate ) post above - I agree with some of the sentiment here that you need to have good mags and good ammo. The builder can supply you with expected ammo specs. You need to insure that your ammo is meeting those specs before you blame the gun. You also need to insure that your magazines are up to speed (one way is to buy at least one mag from the builder at time of purchase). If you haven't done those two things, don't immediately blame the gun. If you're not sure how to determine what's causing the problem, there's probably someone local to you who can get together with you and help diagnose the problem (for instance, I've helped a few folks here in Central Texas get to the bottom of their gun problems, and have found basically every possible issue you can imagine between ammo, mags, and guns). I've even done that remotely on the phone or via email with a couple of folks. There's also a habit that folks have of changing something in the gun, and then perhaps forgetting they changed something, and then they start to have a problem (whether it seems related to that part or not) and they blame the gun/gunsmith. Unless the change was something really benign (like, say, the magwell), you need to swap those parts back before you start blaming the gun/gunsmith. And, yes, occasionally a lemon escapes. But it should be very very rare if the gunsmith knows his stuff. Also, sometimes a part breaks prematurely - this is generally not something the gunsmith can help, either, unless the breakage was due to improper modification of the part during installation (I've seen that, too...). I agree with the above, as well, that how the 'smith handles it from there is pretty telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Every builder should make sure his product if perfect when it leaves his shop. At the price we pay, it doesnt cost alot to make sure the pistol cycles before it is sent off to the customer... I understand what your saying. You pay a premium price, you want it to run and you want perfection. Me too. The question is, what is perfection? Really think about that for a minute, what is YOUR perfection? You must relay that to your builder BEFORE your gun is built. If my "perfection" is ZERO tool marks, bank vault lock up (I can break it in), no sharp corners around the grip safety, reliable trigger job under 3#, hand filed chamfered edges on the slide, one of a kind cuts on slide, etc...then I need to let my builder know those are my expectations and anything less will not do. If the builder wants to pass on the job fearing I may NEVER be satisfied then he may do so BEFORE the work has started. Do you want $6000 Gemini Customs perfection or do you want $1499 STI perfection? If it doesn't run, the builder will make it right or he won't last long in this business. Period. If it happens more often than not, he won't last long. If the builder knows what they are doing, it really isn't hard to make a gun run with standard ammo. The problem lies in the variables. What happens when the customer uses "xyz ammo" with his own "abc magazines" and has issues the builder did not encounter during his own testing and final test fire? Basically two variables that the builder has no control over. What happens when the shooter has poor shooting technique causing finger induced doubles and blames it on the "crap trigger job". Said gun is returned, tested, tested again by other shooters, has no mechanical issues found. Then what? Do you tell the customer, "sorry you just don't know how to shoot a $3500 gun with a sub 2.0# trigger on it." Of course not, but these are the very things that happen that fall into the "it doesn't run right" catagory. Worse for me than feeding/extraction type hiccups would be accuracy. My first custom 2011 purchase had worse accuracy (much worse) than the factory Edge I sold to buy it. That was the day I started building my own 2011's. No where else to point the finger if my stuff doesn't run. This isn't a dig on people that complain about their brand new, custom built, race gun doesn't run. It should run. But there are some other things going on sometimes that the gunsmith could not account for. Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) If my ammo and mags are good, a gun should run. Factory built STI or Full house custom build, it should run. Now I can deal with little small touches like the back of my grip safety not blending in perfectly to the back strap on my factory Edge, but it should run and run and run, PERIOD. want2race: I agree with you, but I still think there is an odd acceptance in this community of guns needing work after purchase. If I spend 1800+ on a gun, it should run. Edited November 30, 2011 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RippSpeed Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Our Limcats in 9x23 and .40S&W, all worked out of the box. We just told him the type of factory ammo available(Winchester)to us and he built the guns to fit that make of ammo. Cheers .... Mr. Lim and his son are good people... I've met then and their guns are freakin awesome but I fear my wallet or my wife would kill me if I made such a huge purchase... @want2race I understand but thats the difference between mass produced and custom ... JaeOne will agree ( that his a car guy) I've dropped $15K on a custom engine build and what I've expect is it'll not have a head gasket problem and the tolerances are right and compression is where I stated, them to be to my builder... It should start with the correct programming. Not lock up its pistons and wont even turn over... I understand engines are far more complicated than a pistol but the same thought process on the builders mindset is the same... If your spending $4k on up ... the bases should already be covered. You the customer should have told the builder I'm running the ammo @ this oal and this bullet design and these mags... all this has to be taken into account if your building a full custom... I personnally dont have this type of cash anymore ... So I build a factory mass produced pistol and modify it from their... Like my factory Edge or my coming soon STI Perfect 10... ps your avatar makes me wanna cry ... LOL, especially since I'm in Nazifornia and its sooo hard to get frames and these guns to hack them up... Edited November 30, 2011 by RippSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maksim Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 If you are spending that much money on a custom gun, it better run. Lets be honest, how much profit is 200 rounds of ammo, $40 to $50 going to ruin the profit margin on a $3,000 gun? We are after all paying for better, more reliable product, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 You also need to insure that your magazines are up to speed (one way is to buy at least one mag from the builder at time of purchase). If you haven't done those two things, don't immediately blame the gun. There's also a habit that folks have of changing something in the gun, and then perhaps forgetting they changed something, and then they start to have a problem (whether it seems related to that part or not) and they blame the gun/gunsmith. Unless the change was something really benign (like, say, the magwell), you need to swap those parts back before you start blaming the gun/gunsmith. Very good point about buying one mag with the gun. Very good idea indeed. I forgot about your second point (above). Also very, very true. I have been on the gunsmith side of that one myself. I was upset with myself and a bit embarrassed that a gun I worked on was having issues. When I got it, parts had been swapped out/"adjusted" different from when I last touched it. That point was not disclosed to me, I had to discover it myself. Another example, things like changing triggers. Different triggers have different bow lengths and that can cause havoc with the functionality of the trigger job. These were just sent to me regarding the earlier topic. What do you do, as a builder, when a solid customer sends back a gun that is failing to operate properly for him but during retesting works 100%? This gun was sent back. Time lost due to retesting, proofing on video, ammo costs etc. Customer even sent 200rds of his own ammo, all of which functioned 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'd be FUMING mad if my custom guns didn't run 100% right out of the gate. Fortunately, with a gun builder like Virgil Tripp, I'm STILL waiting for a feed stoppage of any sort after 2 guns and 50k+ rounds. No tuned mags or special loads. Just add bullets from Wally World junk on up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 How many Limcats are built in a year??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Pledger Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Our Limcats in 9x23 and .40S&W, all worked out of the box. We just told him the type of factory ammo available(Winchester)to us and he built the guns to fit that make of ammo. Cheers .... Mr. Lim and his son are good people... I've met then and their guns are freakin awesome but I fear my wallet or my wife would kill me if I made such a huge purchase... Yes Sir, Having spent time with Johnny and family in Reno, his a great guy, down to earth, very innovative and will always help you. Cheers .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDPMatt Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) I voted "out of the box" but have a condition to that.... it's still my part to provide good ammo and mags and to make sure the gun is lubed and clean. I've bought 2 custom guns from 2 different popular gunsmiths and both of them have had exactly 2 jams that were contributed to mags (tuned mags returned to tuner and repaired and run fine now) or not enough lube (I shot Glocks and revos before). I recently recieved my Limited build and the gun was tighter than any I'd ever seen or heard of before, yet properly lubed with good ammo and mags it will run .40 minor rounds, that surprised me.... 2K rounds later it's broken in but all mine ran from day 1. Edited December 2, 2011 by CDPMatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skubasteev Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 My Bedell gun thought about malfunctioning once then laughed about it and kept on blasting away. +1 Got my Bedell Sight Trane on Friday night and put 400 rounds through it during practice and match this weekend. Not one malfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdzman Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 For the price of most customs they should be 100% right out of the box, assuming you use quality ammo and preform regular cleaning & maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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