Battle VS 3gun

[Chills1994]

I'm thinking that dude there is just using the M1A/M14 as a platform to use the scope as a spotting scope.

If he is about to take a shot, he really needs to get his elbow on his knee...assuming that the pic wasn't kinda staged in the first place.

[Langenator]

I'm thinking that dude there is just using the M1A/M14 as a platform to use the scope as a spotting scope.

If he is about to take a shot, he really needs to get his elbow on his knee...assuming that the pic wasn't kinda staged in the first place.

Well, if you're going to critique his technique, he's not making proper use of the sling on the M14, either. I've never been to an SDM course, so I don't know if they teach that. I know it's not properly taught in basic.

[Roadrider18]

I see the whole discussion as both intriguing and enlightening.

With so many manufacturers of rifles, parts and accessories, one is capable of slapping together just about any kind of black rifle he (she) desires these days.

Ironically, we have had a good discussion in this thread without resorting to name calling, belittling and attempting to humiliate another member simply because he likes his black rifle in different set up.

And quite frankly, this thread has been very refreshing...as compared to similar discussions on other forums.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Roadrider18

[dchang0]

Roadrider18's right. Nowadays, with the huge variety of AR parts out there, it is very easy to build an AR that is both combat-worthy AND competition-grade. In both cases, utter reliability is a requirement anyway.

I've got a rule for all my guns--they need to be tough enough for use in a SHTF situation if it were the only gun I could bug out with. And luckily, that's not difficult to pull off.

Basically, all one has to do is start with a high-quality (made to meet or exceed) milspec AR, then switch out the barrel for a sub-MOA medium profile stainless barrel with Wylde chamber and the trigger with a high-quality trigger. The trigger must be crisp and consistent but does not necessarily have to be light. Just as long as it breaks cleanly with minimal effect on the POI. By minimal, I mean "less than 1MOA of POI shift due to trigger break." Everything else can be combat-proven or combat-worthy parts. It's not even necessary to change the muzzle device--I ran a designed-for-combat KAC Triple Tap for ages on my 3-gun rifle. It turned out to be almost as good as the Arredondo race-muzzle-brake I'm running now. At least, I can't tell the difference, LOL.

The end result of the trigger and barrel swap is basically a lighter weight DMR.

I agree with Alaskapopo--a lighter trigger is a good idea even in a combat rifle or pistol, mainly because in combat, it's even more important that that first shot hits the intended target, as well as all follow-up shots--especially in this litigious society. I get the feeling during the light-trigger-pull debate that many people think of a heavier trigger pull as being something of a replacement for sufficient training and proper trigger/safety discipline. It is much like how anti-lock brakes have been proven to increase traffic accidents because people drive more aggressively with them than old-school brakes.

---

The optic is another story--there are very few optics that are good enough for 3-gun but are rugged enough (and with appropriate features) for combat. Obviously the ACOGs that some 3-gunners use bridge the gap nicely, as well as the S&B Short Dot 1.1-4X, and possibly the new Meopta ZD 1-4X RD Tactical. Most other optics like the Swarovski Z6i aren't rugged enough (the zoom ring is the weak point) or don't have the features preferred for combat (BDC or mil dots, etc.) such as the 1-4X Accupoint.

Edited December 3, 2011 by dchang0

[dmshozer1]

I'm thinking that dude there is just using the M1A/M14 as a platform to use the scope as a spotting scope.

If he is about to take a shot, he really needs to get his elbow on his knee...assuming that the pic wasn't kinda staged in the first place.

He also needs to get his fingers off the operating rod.

[Langenator]

The optic is another story--there are very few optics that are good enough for 3-gun but are rugged enough (and with appropriate features) for combat. Obviously the ACOGs that some 3-gunners use bridge the gap nicely, as well as the S&B Short Dot 1.1-4X, and possibly the new Meopta ZD 1-4X RD Tactical. Most other optics like the Swarovski Z6i aren't rugged enough (the zoom ring is the weak point) or don't have the features preferred for combat (BDC or mil dots, etc.) such as the 1-4X Accupoint.

Out of curiousity...has the ELCAN SpecterDR made any inroads into 3-gun competitions? It's probably deefy to the point of overkill for competition, but the straight 1x to 4x switch with no in between definitely interests me.

[PistoleroJesse]

This is my only AR that I purchased to be my only AR until the wife allows more.

It's a Colt LE6940, so it's a monolithic freefloat upper. I like the PWS flash hider/muzzle brake. It's only marginally brighter than an A2, but keeps the gun much flatter. The SSA I put in it is very nice. Since this picture was taken I have added a Gen2 MBUS that fits right perfect under the 1-4x Accupoint. It needs a light and Iowa needs to change it's laws so I can cut it to 14.5" without pinning something to the muzzle. I would be first in line if Colt was smart enough to make a 16" midlength version. Other than that, I think it's perfect for our 3-gun range which goes out to 300 yards at the most. I think it would do well enough in SHTF, if not I'd change it.

My pistol is a G17 and my shotgun is a M590. Yea I'm not the fastest guy out there, but my guns don't need much maitenance and are not finickey about ammo, and have acceptable accuracy. Ergonomics on each is supperb and so is the weight.

My father always said: Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to realy use it.

Edited December 3, 2011 by PistoleroJesse

[whistlepig]

The last time me and my "Team" had to clear the Orange Julius of deranged high school delinquents and violent blood thirsty soccer moms all jacked up on the Starbucks juice we employed our "Battle rifles" with unmatched effectiveness. We use Colt M4's with green lasers, infrared target illuminators and high output strobe lights, cause they are the best. And just in case I have a stoppage in my rifle (cause thats what the cool people call malfunctions) I can quickly transition to my gold Deserrt Eagle in .50 AE. We also have a sniper who covers us from the second floor of the mall, up by the Urban Outfitters. They don't let us have any bullets for our guns anymore, but I bought me some of that T.A.P. ammo and keep it in my truck vault mounted behind the seat of my golf cart just in case the shit gets heavy. I see that our leader (Code name BIG Chuck) posted earlier in this thread, otherwise I would not have broken my cover and posted on an unsecured internet channel.

THIS................... Is funny

[bgary]

This is my only AR that I purchased to be my only AR until the wife allows more.

<snip>

My father always said: Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to realy use it.

Yeah... my father always said "beware the woman who tells her husband he can only have one gun"

[PistoleroJesse]

This is my only AR that I purchased to be my only AR until the wife allows more.

<snip>

My father always said: Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to realy use it.

Yeah... my father always said "beware the woman who tells her husband he can only have one gun"

Indeed. She knows how to use her man.

At least I got her talked into one firarm of each major category though. Bolt gun is next

[1911vm]

So I have been following this. What do you guys think about this, as a high quality battle (working) rifle? http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.3_JP15VTAC.php

[Roadrider18]

So I have been following this. What do you guys think about this, as a high quality battle (working) rifle? http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.3_JP15VTAC.php

A good rifle, but, pick your marketing medicine...

Current endorsers....

Kyle Lamb - JP

Larry Vickers - Daniel Defense

Mike Pannone - Next Generation Arms

(And, these are just some of the US Army endorsers...)

Simply a source of income (and free swag) for these guys and banner marketing for the company.

There are many good rifles from which to choose. To succeed in the crowded black rifle marketplace, a company has to have a good product to begin with. If not, they will be out of business in a very short period of time. And, no endorsement will cure a cranky rifle/product.

About the operator in the picture....

I would submit it is difficult to critique this operator's choice of techniques in this engagement. A DM or Scout/Sniper would certainly like to assume a "schooled" position or tactic, but, sometimes the environment and/or time compression of a developing situation does not allow one to assume the optimum position.

Not spotting, because his teammate had field glasses.

This was not a square range, but, life & death drama unfolding in theater in the round.

In terms of HOW MANY widgets one needs...

I subscribe to the notion...

Three is Two...

Two is One...

and,

One is None

To deviate on a separate thought...

If one has a concealed carry permit for your state, and chooses to exercise your right, how often do you carry more than one weapon on your person or in your vehicle? And for that matter, is your other vehicle weapon a carbine/rifle/shotgun?

Sadly, I am reminded of the recent massacre at the IHOP in Carson City, NV. Recall the bystander who only had a concealed sidearm and chose not to get involved because he perceived he was lacking firepower? Certainly his call, and I am by no means critiquing his decision. I always have adequate small arms close at hand or in close proximity. You shouldn't choose when to not carry or not be prepared (unless your local or state government has made that decision for you) because you can't choose your lucky day for violence to find you.

Finally, "relative superiority" is achieved by surprise, rehearsed tactics and violence of action, whether actual or perceived by the enemy; not, actual firepower or number of participants. And, most importantly proper mindset to allow one to stay focused and in the moment in order to achieve success.

So, there's not a whole lot of difference between 'winning' (surviving) on the square range or in life's theater in the round. Like discussed here in BE forums so many times, one's degree of success, regardless of venue, are dependent upon training, rehearsal and preparation. The "doing" is almost anti-climatic.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Roadrider18

[Jim Norman]

Interesting discussion.

My understanding, poor as it probably is, is that a Battle Rifle was just that, something along the lines of and this depends upon the era, an '03 Springfield or a Mauser or an Enfield, or as we move forward in time, the M1, the Johnson, the M14, FALs and others in a major caliber such as .308, .303, 8mm or 30-06. Then there are the 'Carbines' these are the AK, AR15/M16/M4 in lighter calibers with much diminished ballistics by comparison. After that we take these and heavily modify them and in may cases start all over from the ground up to build a firearm that is basically designed for whatever particular game we are playing.

It is to our credit as a sport that many things that have been developed by competitors have transitioned to use by LEO and MIL where the penalty for failure is a lot stiffer than moving down a few places at the prize table.

[Roadrider18]

Interesting discussion.

My understanding, poor as it probably is, is that a Battle Rifle was just that, something along the lines of and this depends upon the era, an '03 Springfield or a Mauser or an Enfield, or as we move forward in time, the M1, the Johnson, the M14, FALs and others in a major caliber such as .308, .303, 8mm or 30-06. Then there are the 'Carbines' these are the AK, AR15/M16/M4 in lighter calibers with much diminished ballistics by comparison. After that we take these and he avily modify them and in may cases start all over from the ground up to build a firearm that is basically designed for whatever particular game we are playing.

It is to our credit as a sport that many things that have been developed by competitors have transitioned to use by LEO and MIL where the penalty for failure is a lot stiffer than moving down a few places at the prize table.

Nearly all civilian firearms are derivatives of military concepts and/or designs going all the way back to the cottage industry of flintlocks and percussion muskets, to Sam Colt and Eliphalet Remington. Yes, in recent decades, Congress and SCOTUS have developed a "sporting" sense to firearm (small arms) design and private citizen ownership, but, that was NOT the intent of the Founders.

Many countries (especially European) do not allow ownership of calibers designated as "military".

[Jim Norman]

You may be correct in that , however it is also true that for much of history, at least recent history, small arms development largely occurred within the civilian world. True that it was marketed to the Military as that is where the $$$ is, but Garand, Colt, Browning, Gatling, Maxim and and many if not most others up to and including Barrett are and were private contractors. I feel that some of our laws are probably stifling development. Think about Williams and the M1 Carbine. About as far from the Military as one can get.

[PistoleroJesse]

In terms of vendors, BCM is a good company that many advocate for on one of 'those' forums.

But when you look at their example setups, they look game worthy to me.

Throw a Deuck or a KAC 45° Offset, an SSA, and a Muzzle Brake on it and it would be a great 3-gun rifle.

[Roadrider18]

I want to clarify a comment I made several posts ago....

I am NOT advocating (AT ALL) a private citizen advancing upon an active shooter!

To do so may risk personal injury or death (at the hands of the active shooter or responding LEOs) not to mention potential unwanted exposure to the judicial system. Some states require a retreat while others only allow defense of current position (if life is threatened)in order to use deadly force with protection of laws in certain jurisdictions.

[Roadrider18]

Paul (BCM) assembles many excellent weapon systems for different kits and applications.

[Roadrider18]

Jim, you are most likely correct, especially future development of firearms intended for the private citizen. Primarily, due to my previously mentioned reference to SCOTUS applying "sporting" to ownership by the private citizen.

Political opinion no longer favor private ownership of military weapons. The Swiss model is now dead in the USA.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Roadrider18

[bagdrag]

These discussions come up quite a bit and from reading enough of them (warning:internet commando), I think the requirements for civilians are different for mil/LEO. As a civilian, I feel comfortable enough with my weapons as configured (yes, competition config w/ light-ish triggers) to use them for personal defense. They are reliable enough for me and regardless of what type of gun I have trigger control/discipline is paramount. My gun, my life, my choice.

Now if I was mil/LEO, then I would likely just follow department/agency guidelines and practice/train with that weapon. I would probably hope for a policy similar to what Alaskapopo describes because a good trigger is so important for accuracy in a firearm. The benefits of accuracy and the consequences of missing are so much greater in that environment because of exposure to those situations.

Just an opinion and I am willing to accept your blasts at it.

[Screemnjay]

I'd guess, at the end of the day, potential liability issues determine the gear suggested and distributed to Law Enforcement personnel. As a civilian, these issues don't influence my choices. My 3 gun gear will more than adequately suffice in a self defense scenario. I generally find that, what I want, usually is above and beyond, my needs.

[dchang0]

Out of curiousity...has the ELCAN SpecterDR made any inroads into 3-gun competitions?

No, but that's probably a consequence of the Elcan's price, not of its design.

It might also be "unpopular" because of the ITAR hoops that civilian buyers would have to jump through. I had to answer a questionnaire and fill out a form just to be able to order an S&B Short Dot 1.1-4X!