Classifier

[Joe D]

I wonder if we will ever get rid of this classification system in IDPA. Seems to me a system like IPSC uses would make a lot more sense.

Why not design 20 or so stages that could be used in local matches. One stage per match would tend to eliminate sandbaggers. You could not afford to sandbag that stage and still do well in the match.

I know guys that have not shot the Classifier match in years.

I am glad they finally put the .45 GAP into CDP.

Just kidding about the GAP. Hell has not frozen over yet.

[cpty1]

I thought in IDPA a shooter could get moved up based on overall finish in a state, regional, or national match....?

[Mayonaise]

I wonder if we will ever get rid of this classification system in IDPA. Seems to me a system like IPSC uses would make a lot more sense.

I know guys that have not shot the Classifier match in years.

I am glad they finally put the .45 GAP into CDP.

Just kidding about the GAP. Hell has not frozen over yet.

Joe that system exists in USPSA. I hear they're still accepting members.

I think you want the GAP in CDP so David Sevigny won't beat you guys in SSP with 194 PF ammo.

[geezer-lock]

Yes, your classification can be re-evaluated per the LGB:

"A shooter’s performance in state and national matches may also be used to reevaluate their classification. If total participation in a specific classification

within a division is 10 – 19 shooters, the winner of this class will automatically be promoted up to the next higher classification. If 20 – 29 shooters compete in this division/classification, both 1st and 2nd place competitors will be promoted, etc."

I know of a couple of cases where folks were bumped on the second day of a two day match.

be safe, have fun,

geezer

[Joe D]

Chris, one of the issues is sometimes there are not enough shooters in a class to have the 10 minimum.

The other issue is the Classifier stages bear little semblance to actual match stages.

Mark those IPSC types shoot too fast for an old geez like me. You know you are getting old when you check the box on the match application that says High Senior.

[Steve Moneypenny]

First i must say I prefer the IDPA classification system. I live 2 hrs from the closest match now. and shooting enough classifiers in USPSA (fewer of those than IDPA) is a royal pain in the butt i'm a B class production shooter last year I won the Buckeye Blast. the Ohio state USPSA match in production division, i ousted 2 very good A class shooters, Both now masters.... i'm still a B class shooter... i can shoot well into master when i set up classifier stages. but making it to a match and being anywhere near fresh is impossible.

i feel the classifier stages are a good test of what we find in any match. what do you want more lateral movement, real neat scenario's or what?

your idea would not work at a club level, all that measuring and stuff just isn't IDPA, but maybe on a state level.... bottom line is IDPA is grass roots, not all professionally done. we don't need a few thousand dollars worth of steel, spinners, swingers drop turners, etc.

If your having a problem with a sand bagger. print out his match scores at a major match and a bunch of local ones that back up the claim and report him to a section cooridnator or large match director.

Please be sure of this, i was trying as hard as i could (too hard) to make master and of course spanking all of the experts in the area (5-10 ex in the area) and abotu half the masters every match. and everyone called me a sandbagger... to which i would have liked to punch them in the face as i was NOT one i've never feared masters beating me i only look for an opportunity to improve.

[Mark Perez]

Yes, your classification can be re-evaluated per the LGB:

"A shooter’s performance in state and national matches may also be used to reevaluate their classification. If total participation in a specific classification

within a division is 10 – 19 shooters, the winner of this class will automatically be promoted up to the next higher classification. If 20 – 29 shooters compete in this division/classification, both 1st and 2nd place competitors will be promoted, etc."

I know of a couple of cases where folks were bumped on the second day of a two day match.

be safe, have fun,

geezer

At our state match , there were a couple of divisions where the 1st place finisher qualified for the bump-up.

I know of a couple of cases where folks were bumped on the second day of a two day match.

Was this before the shooter had completed his match?

[ron durham]

Hi Mr. Joe D:

You are right on the money as usual. This is going to be a long post.....I finally feel free to say what I think. I resigned my position as Area Coordinator as of yesterday. My biggest problem with IDPA (with a lot of small problems) is the classifier. I just couldn't enforce a rule I didn't believe in, that being the classifier.

1. First of all, we have a very large Club in my region that has on an average of 5-10 new shooters a month, so HDQ tells me they have to stay in unclassified until we have a classifier. WOW, that could be 50 shooters unclassified. They can't participate in a class until they shoot the classifier which could be 11 months. What is wrong with this picture?

2. A wise sandbagger can stay in let's say Sharpshooter as long as he doesn't shoot the classifier and move up, right? And he is shooting well into Expert and seems he is always absent when we have a classifier and even if he shot it, he could tank it. So, is that fair to the guys that are in his class? Again, what is wrong with this picture? Some of you seem to think......so what on a Club level? Well, if you think about it, probably 95% of the shooting is done on a Club level.

3. The idea that "Well we will catch the guy on a sanctioned match".....first of all, he has to have 10 in his class which if you will look at the scoresheets on a lot of the matches there is usually only one or two divisions and/or classes that have 10 per. And this is the way we are going to catch move up sandbaggers? Give me a break.

4. The IDPA classifier is perfect for people with no honor. And why should the people with no honor screw over the guys who have honor?

5. There is only one way to get a true classification of a shooter's ability is in the competition arena. Heaven forbid.....like USPSA. Is it perfect? No. But if you shoot enough classifiers, it always works out. I am classified B in three different divisions. It worked out.

6. Most everybody that I know that has been into the shooting sport for a good many years will tell you or at least tell me that the classifier is completely backward from it should be. I am a good example.....I am a Master shooter on the classifier with certain disabilities and old age, I move too slow. I usually finish with the Experts because the classifier has virtually no movement. Same is true with the opposite, the guys that can scream thru the stages with poor accuracy the classifier doesn't catch that one either.

7. Now, last but not least.....you guys out there that are constantly recommending that folks that maybe somewhat critical of IDPA.....would you put a sock in it? I am tired of hearing if you don't like it, go shoot USPSA. I pay my dues, I have donated 7 years to IDPA ......I am an SO Instructor, Area Coordinator as of until yesterday, I loved every bit of it so I don't need to hear your nonsense about moving to a different sport.

One more thing, if IDPA trusts us enough to set up a Club, help new shooters get started, set up scenarios that could be dangerous, run monthly matches and so on but not allow us to do our own classification system that works seems kind of strange to me. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Ron Durham

[Joe D]

The majority of the Classifier stages are stand and shoot stages shot without a cover garment. Very few of the stages at any of the matches I go to are stand and shoot. Most have some movement involved and of course cover.

I don't see why having Classifier stages at local matches would be a big effort. Every IPSC match I have shot had at least one. I have helped set many of them up. Does not take very long.

Smoney, not having to fool with all the droppers and such makes the stages easier to set up not harder.

Some folks think I don't like IDPA, that couldn't be further from the truth. I usually SO a squad at our local Steel City match and do the same at some of the out of town matches. Seems like I ran a squad for you Mark at the last SR match. I do not shoot much IPSC any more as I prefer IDPA. My suggestions are designed not to be critical of IDPA, but to perhaps improve it. No, I do not march in step with everyone all the time. I thought we had the right to offer differing opinions. Some take this as a slap in the face to Bill Wilson and crew. Maybe if they would make themselves more available to the dues paying members of IDPA my opinion might change a little. Here's a flash, how about a Q&A section in the Tactical Journal. I think the leaders of IDPA could find time in their busy schedule to answer a few questions about rules and such.

[Joe D]

Well said Ron, especially # 7.

[Johnny Van Etta]

Ron,

Why would you make 5-10 new shooters a month wait for 10-11 months before you hold a classifier? It seems to me if you want the club to grow, you would hold classifiers often enough to keep up with the new shooters showing up. Many clubs would love to have your new shooter turn out.

Johnny Van Etta

[Mark Perez]

Johnny Van Etta beat me to it.

1. First of all, we have a very large Club in my region that has on an average of 5-10 new shooters a month, so HDQ tells me they have to stay in unclassified until we have a classifier. WOW, that could be 50 shooters unclassified. They can't participate in a class until they shoot the classifier which could be 11 months. What is wrong with this picture?

We manage to run a classifier every month.

While we don't have the number of new shooters per month that Ron does , the point of having a regularly scheduled classifier helps promote the sport to the novices and those who genuinely want the promotion to the next higher class.

MP

[ron durham]

My Response:

First of all, the large Club that I am referring to, I am only a member and I was sort of stretching the truth trying to make a point. They had a classifier a month ago and it took 2 days. Frankly I think most of the folks at that Club are fed up with the classifier.....like you guys in Arizona who have some extremely hot days. It is plenty enough work getting to the range at 6 in the morning, setting up five stages and at the end of the day nobody wants to set up classifiers. Maybe the rulebook should state each Club has to do four a year instead of one.

Now, let me give you a hypothetical......let's say we have five new shooters and they shoot for the first time....and every single one of those guys shoot novice scores, why not just put them in novice? Of course you are going to say since this is their first time shooting, they are nervous and they are not going to shoot to their ability, same goes for the classifier?

Okay, if you guys don't mind respond to #2.3.4.5 & 6.

Ron Durham

[Larrys1911]

The biggest problem with the classifier is that almost 30% of it (27 to be exact) is shot at a range of 20 yds.

Im just curious here but,

when was the last time someone went to a major match that 27% of it was shot at 20yds or more?? at the nats that would have been something like 75-100 rounds...

Kinda Goofy aint it!

I have yet to see that.

Also 9 shots on heads. another 10% again at the nats we are talking 25 - 35 headshots!

Those two kill more classifications than anything else in the classifier.

Doesnt matter though regardless what we do to it, I dont know how you could ever make it like shooing a match!

Dont get me wrong I think the classifier is an EXCELLENT skills test of shooting ability.......but it has little to do with "match" performance!

Larry P

[Mark Perez]

2. A wise sandbagger can stay in let's say Sharpshooter as long as he doesn't shoot the classifier and move up, right? And he is shooting well into Expert and seems he is always absent when we have a classifier and even if he shot it, he could tank it. So, is that fair to the guys that are in his class? Again, what is wrong with this picture? Some of you seem to think......so what on a Club level? Well, if you think about it, probably 95% of the shooting is done on a Club level.

Then take care of it at the club level.

I am not talking blanket party .

3. The idea that "Well we will catch the guy on a sanctioned match".....first of all, he has to have 10 in his class which if you will look at the scoresheets on a lot of the matches there is usually only one or two divisions and/or classes that have 10 per. And this is the way we are going to catch move up sandbaggers? Give me a break.

4. The IDPA classifier is perfect for people with no honor. And why should the people with no honor screw over the guys who have honor?

Points 3 and 4:

If there is a blatant cheating by an individual , ban him from the range. You don’t have to let him participate.

5. There is only one way to get a true classification of a shooter's ability is in the competition arena. Heaven forbid.....like USPSA. Is it perfect? No. But if you shoot enough classifiers, it always works out. I am classified B in three different divisions. It worked out.

Or just adopt the LEWIS system like GSSF.

6. Most everybody that I know that has been into the shooting sport for a good many years will tell you or at least tell me that the classifier is completely backward from it should be. I am a good example.....I am a Master shooter on the classifier with certain disabilities and old age, I move too slow. I usually finish with the Experts because the classifier has virtually no movement. Same is true with the opposite, the guys that can scream thru the stages with poor accuracy the classifier doesn't catch that one either.

I think there have been posts on this forum about going full speed with sloppy hits or shooting slower to make all “0’s” , iirc , the scores came out about the same.

I haven't tried that myself to confirm .

7. Now, last but not least.....you guys out there that are constantly recommending that folks that maybe somewhat critical of IDPA.....would you put a sock in it? I am tired of hearing if you don't like it, go shoot USPSA. I pay my dues, I have donated 7 years to IDPA ......I am an SO Instructor, Area Coordinator as of until yesterday, I loved every bit of it so I don't need to hear your nonsense about moving to a different sport.

I’m at a loss here.

One more thing, if IDPA trusts us enough to set up a Club, help new shooters get started, set up scenarios that could be dangerous, run monthly matches and so on but not allow us to do our own classification system that works seems kind of strange to me. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Ron Durham

How would running your own clsfr-system compare with other clubs who decide on something different?

If someone is willing to tank a clsfr - they'll do the same for clsfr stages - it's common place in USPSA , isn't it?

[ron durham]

Mark

I gave some long and lengthy criticisms of what I think is wrong with the classifier and so on. You gave me one liners that don't address anything in my post?

To answer your question, I shot at USPSA two to three weeks a month for 12 years. I never saw anybody tank a classifier that I shot with. Every single one of us were trying to move up. Maybe your experiences are different. As far as IDPA HDQ. trusting us to do a classifier or a sensible classification system is what I was referring to, not that one Club would do it their own way.....and you are at a loss why a lot of us get sick and tired of the radical IDPA group constantly referring to "If you don't like it, move on to a different shooting sport?" What is so hard to understand about that one?please go over 2 3 4 again

Ron Durham

[Mark Perez]

Mark

I gave some long and lengthy criticisms of what I think is wrong with the classifier and so on. You gave me one liners that don't address anything in my post?

To answer your question, I shot at USPSA two to three weeks a month for 12 years. I never saw anybody tank a classifier that I shot with. Every single one of us were trying to move up. Maybe your experiences are different. As far as IDPA HDQ. trusting us to do a classifier or a sensible classification system is what I was referring to, not that one Club would do it their own way.....and you are at a loss why a lot of us get sick and tired of the radical IDPA group constantly referring to "If you don't like it, move on to a different shooting sport?" What is so hard to understand about that one?please go over 2 3 4 again

Ron Durham

Point One.

In the spirit of debate,I try to offer a simple solution to your complex hypothetical problem.

Point Two.

I don't shoot much USPSA - that is why I ask.When I do , the clasiffier stage is done first so that it shows a true cold performance.

Maybe the sandbagger issue is more prevalent in your area , I don't see it around here in our little IDPA matches. What I do see are shooters who strive for improvement , regardless of their reason for playing the sport.

On the other hand , a lot of "the radical IDPA group" get sick of hearing how all the problems with IDPA can be resolved by making it just like USPSA.

"Let's adopt classifiers like USPSA."

"Lets have major/minor like USPSA."

"I can't shoot my 'carry gun' like they let me in USPSA."

and my favorite

"I can't do a speedload in IDPA like I would in the real world" - usually from someone who doesn't carry in the RW.

Ron ,

Sorry to see someone of your experience leave the AC position , I hope your replacement can fill the shoes you leave behind.

Until that day

Mark

[NEPAKevin]

My understanding is that sandbagging exists in virtually every sport that uses a handicap system and only can be controlled with systematic evaluation though an international database. FWIW, I think Bulls-eye has a good system for bumping shooters up. Short of this, I have heard it suggested that a classification above master would also help.

Kevin

[ron durham]

Hi Mark:

Sorry to take so long to get back to you to answer your post. Spent 15 hours at the hospital Saturday and am now a Great Grampa. WOW. Haley Lynn come bouncing in at 9 lb. 7 oz. This kid looks like a football player already. Oops, she is a girl......maybe baseball player.

To your post.....I was a little pushy trying to get somebody to show me where I am going wrong on my views of a different type of classifier. Of course, none of this really matters because HQ is not going to change it anyway. I think a lot of us just flap our jaws out of frustration. Let me make a couple of more points then I will shutup forever on this subject.

First of all, as our discussion about complainers, I am with you. The hair sticks up on the back of my neck when I hear bashing of IDPA. Let's face it if you look hard enough you can find something wrong with just about anything however petty. What I am talking about is folks that are good representatives of IDPA and donate a lot of time to it and see things that they are not happy with should be able to bring it up on a site, discuss it without being told to go somewhere else. Change or improvement can be a good thing. I know I sure like the fuel injection on my cars, I like the fact that I can go 50,000 to 100,00 without a tune-up. I can fill a page with examples. How about this one, when USPSA saw that they were getting clobbered by IDPA, they got busy and got production and L10 classes. To me that was a good thing. Okay enough of that.

Let me give you another example and then I am done. At our Regional Match May 2nd, I think the same day as your state match, we had a shooter Sharpshooter SSP who shot 111.63. He was first in his class. Now get this....the SSP Expert who is known as a good Expert shot 112.26. The Sharpshooter thank goodness had 10 in his class so he was automatically bumped up to Expert. Not only did he win his class he also beat the Expert #1 shooter. So let's say there was only 9 in the class, he doesn't get bumped up does he? In my view, wrong, wrong, wrong. So we are talking about chance or luck instead of him being boosted up on his skills, his lucky day being only 9 shooters. I hope I am making my point.

Mark, I have got to say that you are one of the guys and a few others like Bubba and Larry 1911 that I listen to. You guys are perfect gentlemen, easy to understand replys and I want you to know that you have helped me over the last year or so and I appreciate it.

Thanks,

Ron Durham

[Joe D]

Ron, I have just started gathering some info from matches shot in the southeast states over the last couple of years. There are some individuals that are pretty obvious as to their sandbagging abilities. I am going to send this list, with examples, to my AC and to IDPA headquarters.

I am real curious as to how often some of these guys have shot the Classifier.

[John Forsyth]

Ron, there is something called "Known ability". I use it and I know Myrin Young uses it. And I used it on Saturday at the Southern Regional. Shooter, SSR SS won the whole thing. Beat out several MA class shooters. There were only three or four in his class, but he is now in Expert class. He did not have a problem with the bump up. As an AC, you had the authority to do it.

Had one more I wanted to bump up, but they left before I could find them. I was too tired to chase them down.

Joe, was glad you and your lovely wife made the match.

[Joe D]

Thanks, John. I know which guy you are talking about. Seems like he was a MM in either SSP or ESP and shot a 150 something score.

Boy was that match a disaster for me. I just could not do anything right. I am compiling my list of excuses. It make take a while. I was really impressed with the way Matt S. shot. Beating Daniel's "pop gun" with a "manly gun" was quite a feat.

We both enjoyed the match.

[Mayonaise]

Joe,

You know I was jerking your chain. You also know that the odds of the IDPA BoD adopting the USPSA classification method are both slim and none.

As a former full time MD at a club where running the classifier was all but impossible. So I always made it a point to offer to run shooters through the drill before or after the monthly matches at the outdoor club by appointment. Over the years I have never seen anyone intentionally tank the classifier. That said, there are also quite a few people I know that have been shooting IDPA for a couple of years and no matter how often I've offered to run them in the classifier they either can't make it or just don't. They also never show up at the bigger monthly matches or any sanctioned matches. If they stay UNC forever, no harm, no foul.

Sandbagging exists, as someone pointed out in every sport. ThHere will always be people with such low self worth that will stoop to sandbagging no matter what system is in place and will find a way to beat the system to do it. I think once the national classification database goes gold 90% of the these problems at sanctioned matches will go away. There also will always people that come to the sport as a newbie with great skills but never shoot the classifier and will appear to be sandbaggers. I saw that recently. He was still learning the game so it was not intentional in the least.

Personally I like the classifier. There will always be shooters that can shoot the classifier better than they can perform in a 10+ stage match. There are shooters that will practice the classifier over and over and over to move up. I see nothing wrong with that because 99% of those guys will also finish in big matches somewhere in the field of their classification. There are also shooters that will move up in class by winning their class in a sanctioned match but never be able to shoot an equivalent classifier score. So what? All in all the system works pretty well.

[Mark Perez]

Ron ,

Congratulations on the new addition to the family !

I don't know of any solution to the classifier issue - besides having a class above master - that would be workable in the IDPA format.

For now we will have to make the best of what we have until HQ decides differently.

I'm not going to hold my breath .

The "known ability" clause is a new one to me.

FWIW , I think that anyone who win's their class at a regional/state/national match should get promoted , regardless of the number of competitors in same.

Or if their winning score would put them in the position of Win/Place or Show in any upper division , they get promoted.

Ron - don't be a stranger to the boards , I look forward to your insight.

Until that day,

Mark

[rhino]

There will always be shooters that can shoot the classifier better than they can perform in a 10+ stage match.

I'm one of them!