waktasz Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If the WSB says start position is "Standing in box A, hands naturally at sides", does that mean standing completely upright, or can you be standing with knees bent and ready to run to the next position, or leaning to one side, ready to shoot a target around a corner of a wall? I know the default start if not listed is standing erect, hands at sides, but since this start was defined differently, that doesn't apply, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyburg Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Depends on what level the match is and how the course of fire is written. Nc state championship last year stated that you had to standing up right with no bend in your knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Stated where? In the WSB? That's fine, but this stage did not have that in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Depends on what level the match is and how the course of fire is written. Nc state championship last year stated that you had to standing up right with no bend in your knees. That's different as it is spelled out in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Correct. Which part ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides To me having bent or flexed knees is still standing erect. As long as you are facing withing the confines of the 180 you are facing downrange. So you can be turned towards your direction of intended movement as well. The big change came with the up range start which now requires you to be facing directly up range with no twisting etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Correct. Which part ? Your post. I typed it before the other reply was posted. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (I thought I posted a similar question before.) Essentially, the conclusion I believe was that 8.2.2 states direction ("downrange") where your hands are ("arms hanging naturally by sides") , and the general posture of the upper body ("standing erect"), but waist, legs, feet can be positioned as the shooter wants. This is unlike the definition of "facing uprange" which includes feet position. Some evil ROs have been known to extend the time between "Are you ready?", "Standby", and "Start signal" while some people are twisted in weird positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I guess I'm still confused. Since the WSB didn't say standing erect, does that part of 8.2.2 apply or can I be in any position I want as long as I'm following the WSB (standing and hands at sides) I basically wanted to start already like this picture (of course with hands at sides) Edited October 17, 2011 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Some evil ROs have been known to extend the time between "Are you ready?", "Standby", and "Start signal" while some people are twisted in weird positions. So longer than 4 seconds? 8.3.3 “Standby” – This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Some evil ROs have been known to extend the time between "Are you ready?", "Standby", and "Start signal" while some people are twisted in weird positions. So longer than 4 seconds? 8.3.3 "Standby" – This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds. About 10-15 seconds between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", and about 4 seconds between "Standby" and the buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I guess I'm still confused. Since the WSB didn't say standing erect, does that part of 8.2.2 apply or can I be in any position I want as long as I'm following the WSB (standing and hands at sides) I basically wanted to start already like this picture (of course with hands at sides) Here's 8.2.2: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 About 10-15 seconds between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", and about 4 seconds between "Standby" and the buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If the WSB says start position is "Standing in box A, hands naturally at sides", does that mean standing completely upright, or can you be standing with knees bent and ready to run to the next position, or leaning to one side, ready to shoot a target around a corner of a wall? I know the default start if not listed is standing erect, hands at sides, but since this start was defined differently, that doesn't apply, right? Ok...so that WSB specified. - Standing (not kneeling...check) - in box A (check) - hand position (check) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 About 10-15 seconds between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", and about 4 seconds between "Standby" and the buzzer. It wasn't me, but was done to me. The RO and I had a good laugh over it after the CoF, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I guess I'm still confused. Since the WSB didn't say standing erect, does that part of 8.2.2 apply or can I be in any position I want as long as I'm following the WSB (standing and hands at sides) I basically wanted to start already like this picture (of course with hands at sides) Perfectly legal in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 If the WSB says start position is "Standing in box A, hands naturally at sides", does that mean standing completely upright, or can you be standing with knees bent and ready to run to the next position, or leaning to one side, ready to shoot a target around a corner of a wall? I know the default start if not listed is standing erect, hands at sides, but since this start was defined differently, that doesn't apply, right? Ok...so that WSB specified. - Standing (not kneeling...check) - in box A (check) - hand position (check) That's how I felt about it too, and how I did it, but afterwards the RO said that that technically wasn't an allowed start position and wouldn't fly at a bigger match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If the WSB says start position is "Standing in box A, hands naturally at sides", does that mean standing completely upright, or can you be standing with knees bent and ready to run to the next position, or leaning to one side, ready to shoot a target around a corner of a wall? I know the default start if not listed is standing erect, hands at sides, but since this start was defined differently, that doesn't apply, right? Ok...so that WSB specified. - Standing (not kneeling...check) - in box A (check) - hand position (check) That's how I felt about it too, and how I did it, but afterwards the RO said that that technically wasn't an allowed start position and wouldn't fly at a bigger match. Bigger match? No such thing to a good RO. Run locals like you would run a major and everybody benefits from it. If he said it would not fly at a bigger match he should not have allowed it to fly locally but of course he would have to back it up with a rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Just putting on the DRL hat on: How is a stage designer suppose to write the WSB start position if the intent is to take advantage of the default in 8.2.2? By the mere fact of writing "Start position: Standing anywhere in shooting area", the word "standing" now overrides the "unless otherwise specified". I tried the route of writing "Start position: Anywhere in shooting area". When I last tried that to get a course approved for Level II, Amidon stated that I had to add "standing". Next time, I'll try "Start position: Inside shooting area as per 8.2.2.". The CRO for the stage will kill me when he has to readout verbatim "The start position is anywhere in the shooting area as per 8.2.2, and handgun is loaded and ready as per 8.1.1 and 8.1.2" for the next two days. Edited October 17, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If the WSB says start position is "Standing in box A, hands naturally at sides", does that mean standing completely upright, or can you be standing with knees bent and ready to run to the next position, or leaning to one side, ready to shoot a target around a corner of a wall? I know the default start if not listed is standing erect, hands at sides, but since this start was defined differently, that doesn't apply, right? Ok...so that WSB specified. - Standing (not kneeling...check) - in box A (check) - hand position (check) That's how I felt about it too, and how I did it, but afterwards the RO said that that technically wasn't an allowed start position and wouldn't fly at a bigger match. I've noticed a propensity for ROs (and CROs) to dictate start positions that are in addition to the wording dictated in the WSB, feeling that it proper that all competitors start from the exact same position. I feel this to be a conflict between the intent of being freestyle vs. a misconceived issue of competitive fairness. There should be a set of parameters that define a start position, and anything else that a competitor does to gain an advantage (or force a disadvantage by overthought) should be part of the game. If we are free to shoot a course of fire as and when visible, then that should include the start position. Meet the letter of the rule/WSB and everything else should be at our discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If you want to have a VERY SPECIFIC start position, either have the CRO demonstrate it OR take a PHOTOGRAPH and post it along with the WSB, Start Position is as show on the attached photo. Otherwise standing erect, hands at sides, facing down range is the default. No you can't do the IPSC Monkey! part of what cracks me up is the odd positions people will adopt thinking that it will take time off their run. Usually it is the opposite. Now standing erect with wrists above respective shoulders, you can gain a few hundredths in reaction time if you keep your hands down near your shoulders as opposed to having your upper arms parallel to the ground with your lower arms pointing straight up with your hands spread out fingers straight. But even there it can be more a mental crutch than a physical assist. My favorite start is Shooter standing anywhere in the FFZ. I used to get into a real argument with someone over that. Freestyle starts after the buzzer, not before! I argue that freestyle either is or is not. As soon as you specify a start position of any type, you are restricting the shooter from solving the problem to the best of his cognitive ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I've noticed a propensity for ROs (and CROs) to dictate start positions that are in addition to the wording dictated in the WSB... I saw that at the Nationals this year. I don't care if they want it a particular way...just write it up properly in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I've noticed a propensity for ROs (and CROs) to dictate start positions that are in addition to the wording dictated in the WSB... I saw that at the Nationals this year. I don't care if they want it a particular way...just write it up properly in the WSB. I don't care if they want it a particular way... just so long as the RO's, who, for this to work, would have to be dedicated to the stage, are particular with everybody in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I don't care if they want it a particular way... just so long as the RO's, who, for this to work, would have to be dedicated to the stage, are particular with everybody in the same way. Hmm - I see that often being an issue with staff days. Issue is - the more rigid you make a start position - the more chance there is for someone to screw it up and get reshoots and stages tossed. Hands on Xs, toes touching marks. Make it simple and let shooters hang themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now