Cross dominance: Different grip/wrist technique needed?

[JaeOne3345]

I searched and found plenty on cross dominance, but didn't find anyone with similar findings.

I have been spending some time at the indoor range shooting at around 15-16 yards (45-50 feet). With the new STI (previously a Glock shooter) I am pulling my shots left. They are fine elevation wise typically when it happens.

I shoot right handed but I am strongly left eye dominant, so much that I shoot long guns left handed. I typically bring the gun (pistol) over to my left eye. Bringing it over to my left eye requires less thinking for me on the clock than cocking my chin to my right shoulder. This also puts my wrist at more of an extreme angle that someone who is right eye dominant since I have to sweep the pistol over to my left while still keeping it straightforward. This is also now occurring to me as problematic because the gun is not in the center of my body.

Get this....

If I shoot weak hand (both hands and weak hand only) using my left eye, everything is in alignment and I can shoot much better, so I think it may have something to do with the angle of the gun when it is in my right hand. When I do this, the sights are aligned perfectly straight.

Things are a bit different when I shoot with both hands (right handed).

In order for me to hit a 6 inch orange circle at 45-50 feet I have to drift my sights super far right. This sighting also works at closer ranges, but to me this seems like a crutch. (A bomar moved 12 clicks to the right )

The typical response to this is work on my trigger technique. I practice dry firing quite a bit. I can place a penny on top of the site and dry fire without it moving. I can do this with my Glock and with my STI.

I can put a piece of scotch tape on my left eye and force myself to use my right eye for pistol only matches, but this poses a problem when I need that eye for multigun shooting.

Should I be applying pressure with my support hand thumb to keep the gun pointed straight? It seems like the angle of my wrist from bringing the gun to my left side is causing the issue. I read in the “Combat Handgun Grip” article that Brian Enos prefers the thumb to make no contact, where as Dave Sevigny said he thinks it is an important part of keeping the gun in control. I know Dave is cross dominant, but not sure if Brian shoots cross dominant as I have heard he trained himself to use his right eye.

Any advice you guys can offer will be much appreciated. Shooting my pistol left handed is out of the question because I just don’t have the same dexterity for drawing and reloading. On a similar note, shooting my rifle right handed just feels wrong and unnatural.

Edited October 12, 2011 by JaeOne3345

[flack jacket]

JaeOne3345,

I'm cross dominant like yourself. Left eye, right handed.

Sounds like you have grip and position correct.

Do you?:

During your isosceles stance do you move the gun slightly left and move the sights behind the left eye?

Turn your head slightly right to move sights to left eye?

Is your vision crystal clear on the front sight with both eyes?

IMO I would not try to force you to use right eye.

Try the two different styles, see what may work.

[JaeOne3345]

I move the gun to my left eye.

[flack jacket]

I'll see you at NRG, we have a class, swing on by...

[JaeOne3345]

I will be there early to try sighting in in broad daylight as opposed to the indoor to see if that makes a difference.

I wanna shoot the match as I normally do.

What time is your class?

Edited October 14, 2011 by JaeOne3345

[JaeOne3345]

This problem of shooting left does not manifest itself at shorter distances, i.e. 7 yards, but if you double that (15 yards) then the problem really show its ugly rear.

At this weekend's match I consistently shot left of all the small steel plates, while shooting right handed and left eyed.

I did find a solution for myself. I forced myself to use my right eye with some tape, and bam, all of my shots I had trouble making were now easy!

I know some folk say it shouldn't make a difference, but shooting crossed does hurt me at longer distances. I personally have to shoot right eyed and right handed from now on.

I knew it wasn't my trigger control. My misses/groups were way too consistent.

Whatever is going on with my perception is strange. I swear the sights are lined up when I shoot right handed/left eyed but the targets/results say otherwise. Right handed and right eyed, no problems. POI POA.

[E K]

I am also right hand, left eye dominant. It sounds as though you may be trying to shoot with both eyes?

I shoot with left eye only with a slight turn of the head to the right. I have played around with taping my right eye and shooting with both open. Like you, I found that I am fine inside 15 yards. Outside of that and my shots are waaay left.

I've given up on both eyes and taping and have gone back to left eye only.

[JaeOne3345]

Ahhh, this forum is a great resource. After some serious digging, I found two posts in a thread that I agree with totally!

Changing Eye Dominance, Why?

I had the same situation and managed to get my right eye back into action in a few months.

I found that the biggest problem with the left eye being dominant is that my natural pointing ability is wasted.  This translates into worse performance at speed.

Point your right index finger at a spot across the room using that dominant left eye.  Now close the left eye and you should see that you're actually pointing that finger about a foot to the left of the spot.  The right eye is "zeroed" for the right hand, so that's where you're really pointing.  Imagine your gun taking the place of that finger...Point shooting will be most difficult when the gun is pointed a foot to the left of where you're looking.

Any error in the sight picture with the left eye is going to result in a worse hit than the same amount of error using the right eye.

Your grip is also likely cocked to the side instead of being lined up with your right arm.  Recoil recovery can suffer and the gun doesn't come up on target as fast.

While the above looks like I'm stating facts, those are only facts in my particular case.  

I do know that I started out shooting in an informal match each month.  For 4 months I could place no higher than 12th place overall.  I managed to get my right eye working and with that change I won the next two (last two for the year) overall matches, and won the overall championship the following year.  Leaving my left eye dominant would have resulted in me still farting around in the middle of the pack.

I had never noticed the left eye was a problem at the range where I could always take careful aim, but the first time I opened door to activate a disappearing target, it was obvious that something was wrong.

About this time last year, I put up a post about my being left eye dominant and shooting right handed (the post is still there under “Shooting technique questions, Handgun –Left eyes right hand”).  I would compensate by canting the gun over to my left eye while holding it in my right hand, but I was unhappy with that.  My recoil path was wildly inconsistent and I couldn't produce any kind of accuracy at all (at speed) with reproducible results.  I also had started shooting long guns a lot more and didn’t want to switch.

I spent many, many years in karate, and it taught me that keeping my wrists straight was the only way to deliver maximum power since energy seeks the path of least resistance.  With the “break” in my wrist, I couldn’t control anything.  I was left with the choice of either changing to shoot left-handed or trying to make my right eye my shooting eye.  I could have tried tilting my head, but at speed I would get confused and I coudn't tell which eye the gun was in front of.  I opted to take all of 2002 and shoot exclusively with my left eye taped so that my right eye would have to take over.  It worked!  The sights just line up naturally with my right eye now, even though for all other things I’m still left-eye dominant.  I’ll probably shoot my major matches this year with tape on the left eye just to be safe, but my goal is to be 100% confident by 2004.

Looks like I will be training to shoot pistol right eyed. I will remain left eyed for long guns.

[JaeOne3345]

I am also right hand, left eye dominant. It sounds as though you may be trying to shoot with both eyes?

I shoot with left eye only with a slight turn of the head to the right. I have played around with taping my right eye and shooting with both open. Like you, I found that I am fine inside 15 yards. Outside of that and my shots are waaay left.

I've given up on both eyes and taping and have gone back to left eye only.

Bingo! I have always shot both eyes open but I am trying to work on accuracy at longer distances and now it is showing some error.

I think my issue is that I have always brought my gun over to my left eye, since I do not feel comfy bringing my head to the right and I have to really think about it under time/pressure. I have been shooting both eye open for too long at this point.

But I am glad that I found right eye right hand works perfect for me.

It was almost ridiculous at how every single shot I had missed on far 8 inch plates was now easy.

As I quoted in the most above, I think it had something to do with the angle of my pistol and wrist from pulling it over to my left eye.

[CocoBolo]

Shoot open the dot cares not which eye you use. Now this post has got me thinking since I've had a devil of a time with my Iron Sight gun at longer distances shooting both eyes open on steel plates. Left eye right handed, I'm going to try winking it with the right eye on the long shots, just to see if it works.

[JaeOne3345]

Coco, funny you mention that. "It's time for you to shoot open!" was the joke of the day among some buddies who were trying to help me diagnose the issue.

But yea, try right hand with your right eye at longer distances. It works for me, sights centered, no funky adjusted rear, etc.

For me, it was the cure for CONSISTENTLY missing and shooting left. Not exactly low, but left! It only worked when I drifted the bomar to the right about 12 clicks from center! That told me right there something was up.

[pjb45]

Left eye dominant, right handed, with mono-vision. The left eye is used for distance. For a few years, I changed the contact in the left eye so I could focus on the front sight. I have switched back and forth from using the left eye and closing the left.

There was not change in the classifiers that could be attributed to which eye was used. The last year or so, I just close the left eye when sighting the iron sights.

I have now moved to Open and use my left eye exclusively since it is set up for distance.

My grip does change slightly when shooting with the left eye. It is more centered/neutral than when shooting with the right eye. If I am standing still facing the targets, I will drop my right foot back about three inches more, this re-aligns the shoulders.

I am a pretty solid B shooter using either eye. It has made no difference in my shooting performance, it is just a lot easier not having to change a contact to shoot with both eyes open, so I just close the dominant distance eye.

[JaeOne3345]

So even you close your left dominant eye when shooting iron sights.

Why did you not use the dominant left eye with iron sights? Did you also notice error at longer distances?

Edited October 17, 2011 by JaeOne3345

[kcult]

Switching eyes assumes you can see from both. I'm LE/RH and twist my head to shoot. I'm not blind in my right eye, but my vision is so poor that it is no contest which eye I will use.

I could use a contact to correct my vision (and I do just that when hunting deer with a bow), but at 43 years old and being like this from birth (retina abnormality coupled with near-sightedness and astygmatism), I just don't enjoy walking around with corrected vision. Sounds weird, I know, but I've grown quite accustomed to relying on one eye to see the world.

[Rickr]

Switching eyes assumes you can see from both. I'm LE/RH and twist my head to shoot. I'm not blind in my right eye, but my vision is so poor that it is no contest which eye I will use.

I could use a contact to correct my vision (and I do just that when hunting deer with a bow), but at 43 years old and being like this from birth (retina abnormality coupled with near-sightedness and astygmatism), I just don't enjoy walking around with corrected vision. Sounds weird, I know, but I've grown quite accustomed to relying on one eye to see the world.

Could be like me, LE dominant, but my right eye has much better vision. Sucks. I have always had trouble as well. Growing up I simply shot everything left handed. From bows to muzzleloaders to the M16. Had trouble with the muzzleloader, especially flintlock, as you got sprayed by flash powder. Had trouble with the M16 by brass hitting you. The Army would not issue a brass deflector to a right handed soldier. My only solution was to shoot right handed and learn to shoot right eyed. I always felt that the weapond simply didn't line up the same when you crossed over. Makes no sense, but that's what it always seemed like.

Now the big problem was I couldn't wink my left eye. I taped it closed for a few days which stretched the muscles out enough to close it some, but I still ain't winning no beauty contest winking.

[SN13]

Can't wink the Left eye!? How do you sleep!?

Edited October 26, 2011 by SN13

[CocoBolo]

Can't wink the Left eye!? How do you sleep!?

Haven't you seen anyone sleep with their eyes open, and thier mouth. Sorry, I just couldn't pass it up. I know several people that can't close either eye independent of the other, its called sympathetic movement. I shot a 40 yard standard Sunday with Iron sights, but I forgot to test with just the right eye, anyway the score is in the book for both eyes and the hits were there. Next time I'll try it weak hand.

Edited October 26, 2011 by CocoBolo

[Rickr]

Can't wink the Left eye!? How do you sleep!?

Lol, back then I was young enough I don't think I did sleep. I can wink them both now, but The girls still don't come running. Kind a look like Popeye. I yam what I yam.

[BobZ]

Wow… this is a fantastic discussion!

I’m LE dominate, right handed shooter as well. At times, I shoot left, not real bad but enough to bother me. For sure it’s out past 15 yards when I notice the left drift. I do want to mention , I shoot with both eye’s open and have no ghost issues.

What I find helpful is actually a series of things:

- I will, at times, blink my right to make sure my sight picture is left eye dominate.

- I check my stance, making sure my right leg is behind me enough to turn my upper body right. This seems to help my grip as my forward arm alignment is more centered.

- I do need my left thumb pressed against the right thumb. Actually it’s a bit over the top of my right thumb.

I’ve tried right handed, not dominate right eye but found I needed to close my LD eye… not really happy left handed shooting as it feels awkward, and have some issues when reloading quickly.

I do feel better reading, knowing there are other shooters LED and righty

Bob

[t0066jh]

Here's what worked for me. I wanted to figure out what was natural because we all revert to what's natural under pressure (the buzzer)..

Dry fire for about 15 minutes. Place a target 10 yards away. Draw to an accepatable sight picture, just keep doing this as you allow your body to determine the correct stance, posture, wrist angle, whatever. Don't force anything. Your body will tell you what will work. Now that you've got that right. Find your Natural Point of Aim (instuctions in the forum). Now you should be good to go.

From there, I took it further. My new shooting glasses have my dominate eye focused on the front sight and the non dominant eye on 25 yards.

Now, I focus on the target, draw the gun, and the gun with the front sight properly aligned appears between me and the target.

Try it, you'll like it.

Joe