When to speak up

[NewColonial]

At a recent local, Level 1 match, we had a 10 target, 20 round stage. Gun is holstered but UNLOADED at start. Shooter shoots first 10 rounds, reloads shoots last 10. I noticed that he didn't go to slide lock before reloading. As soon as he's done, score keeper asks "what division" and the reply is "production." Then the RO turns around and asks "Why didn't you go to slide lock before the reload?" And shooter replies "The first magazine can have 11 rounds in it." RO says okay and moves on to next shooter.

So, it's a level 1 match. I'm fairly new. I didn't know any of the other shooters. I was out there to have fun, didn't want to be an a-hole, and certainly didn't want to see the guy moved to Open! I told myself I'll mention privately to the shooter later in the match that he's mistaken. He didn't appear to be a new shooter either. However, I totally forgot about as the day progressed. I'm fairly certain that if I had spoken up the rest of the morning would not have been so fun.

What do others do when they see an issue in this situation? Just curious.

NOTE: If I'm wrong about the rule, then this post is moot.

[aztecdriver]

At a recent local, Level 1 match, we had a 10 target, 20 round stage. Gun is holstered but UNLOADED at start. Shooter shoots first 10 rounds, reloads shoots last 10. I noticed that he didn't go to slide lock before reloading. As soon as he's done, score keeper asks "what division" and the reply is "production." Then the RO turns around and asks "Why didn't you go to slide lock before the reload?" And shooter replies "The first magazine can have 11 rounds in it." RO says okay and moves on to next shooter.

So, it's a level 1 match. I'm fairly new. I didn't know any of the other shooters. I was out there to have fun, didn't want to be an a-hole, and certainly didn't want to see the guy moved to Open! I told myself I'll mention privately to the shooter later in the match that he's mistaken. He didn't appear to be a new shooter either. However, I totally forgot about as the day progressed. I'm fairly certain that if I had spoken up the rest of the morning would not have been so fun.

What do others do when they see an issue in this situation? Just curious.

NOTE: If I'm wrong about the rule, then this post is moot.

Appendix D4.9 has the rule that you need.

9 Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

Because the load comes after the start signal, his 11 round magazine is illegal - in fact regardless if he used it or not, but being that he used it - it definitely affords a move to open.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

I've known friends that have required the bump of other friends - and they took it in stride. It is a game and the rules of the game should still be applied. It's not malicious for you to inform them but I would let them know and give them the opportunity to bump themselves to open. A true sportsman would take their mistake in stride and not make the same mistake again.

[centermass]

Or if you want to be really nice... "you meant to circle 'Limited, Minor'... yes?"

Edited October 4, 2011 by centermass

[aztecdriver]

Or as I've heard - "wow, that time sure sucked for one of those fancy open guns!" - everyones different and they'll all take it differently. If I did it, I'd grab my scoresheet write it down myself, but that's me.

[ihatepickles]

I think the correct rule has been quoted, the shooter should've been bumped to open. This comes up from time to time, when to put yourself into a rules discussion between another shooter and the RO?

I've seen a really similar situation happen and I spoke up when the RO failed to act on the 11 round situation. I was really disappointed that day as the RO then gave the shooter a reshoot. I asked for the RM to step in at that point and the RM bumped the shooter to open and the reshoot wasn't given.

It pretty much sucked for the rest of the day. There were bad feelings about it from the shooter, the RO, and the RM. In the next few months we talked about it a few times and eventually I think the issues were set aside. I don't think there's any lasting damage to those friendships but it was dicey for a while.

In my opinion, this is much easier to deal with above the club level. Also in my opinion, club level matches are too lax on equipment rules and steel calibration (steel being a different discussion altogether). I'm trying to volunteer as much as possible to RO locally, I see this as a way to help improve the club and not just gripe about it.

[aztecdriver]

I think the correct rule has been quoted, the shooter should've been bumped to open. This comes up from time to time, when to put yourself into a rules discussion between another shooter and the RO?

I've seen a really similar situation happen and I spoke up when the RO failed to act on the 11 round situation. I was really disappointed that day as the RO then gave the shooter a reshoot. I asked for the RM to step in at that point and the RM bumped the shooter to open and the reshoot wasn't given.

It pretty much sucked for the rest of the day. There were bad feelings about it from the shooter, the RO, and the RM. In the next few months we talked about it a few times and eventually I think the issues were set aside. I don't think there's any lasting damage to those friendships but it was dicey for a while.

In my opinion, this is much easier to deal with above the club level. Also in my opinion, club level matches are too lax on equipment rules and steel calibration (steel being a different discussion altogether). I'm trying to volunteer as much as possible to RO locally, I see this as a way to help improve the club and not just gripe about it.

Wow, sorry for that. You know, i look at it this way. This is a game - just like as if we were all sitting around playing monopoly. If I were to put 10 dollars in the bank for buying a 100 property, and you noticed - do you think I should have been called out on it? Do you think I would have bad feelings about it? Or better yet, were playing soccer and I get a little too aggressive defending in the box and accidentily trip someone - and they get a PK. It was an accident, should the penalty be "Waved"? Games have rules and consequences. There's a difference between gaming and cheating, even if the "cheat" is by accident or misunderstand.

My first major, an area match, I was shooting my 4th stage which was a particularly evil plate stage with no shoots behind them. I've been shooting pistols for 6 mos - of course I hit one. I'm walking around during the scoring and see one, point it out to the RO that he missed it, and the score keeper states "scoring complete". He says to me - "First major, right? Piece of advice, don't help the ROs" I'm sorry, just not me, on myself or someone else. If you consider it part of the game, be prepared to be sore at me, sorry. I'll explain it to them that way - and leave the choice up to them. If I can hold my head up in doing the right thing, they might learn to do the same.

[BillD]

I've heard MD's actually say, "This is my match, I'll run it like I want."

[Chills1994]

^^^

the three fastest forms of communication:

1. telephone

2. television

3. tell-a-shooter

that MD most not want repeat customers.

I can't think of an any worse kiss of death for a match or club than if the word got out that a club wasn't fair, or it was hinky...or pulling some sort of shady stuff.

That said, as a Match Director, I would much, MUCH! rather have a shooter call me up on the phone or to tell me in person that something kinda iffey went down versus broadcasting it over the internet.

being Match Director =/= being omniscient

when I draw up stages and type out the written stage briefing, for unloaded gun start stages I make it point to write in that production and L-10 shooters must start out with just 10 in the mag, not 11.

[Chills1994]

also, as MD, I have let it known that I have an "open door policy". Shooters can call or talk to me at any time...about anything. I have also let it known that I am no fan of email either since it is so easy to have your comments forwarded or BCC'ed without your knowledge or approval.

When I printed up business cards, I included just my name and my "assistant match director" 's name and cell phone numbers. I hope it was eye searingly obvious that my email address wasn't on the business card.

[CSEMARTIN]

I can't think of an any worse kiss of death for a match or club than if the word got out that a club wasn't fair, or it was hinky...or pulling some sort of shady stuff.

Very True!

I used to shoot at an IDPA club years ago that had this very thing happy. The new MD takes over and starts doing hinky shit. He started applying the rules differently to different people. He made questioanble calls, etc. Now, people just don't turn out in droves like they used to. The old match director worked his ass off to build up the club, then the new guy shows up and tanks it.

edit: spelling

Edited October 4, 2011 by CSEMARTIN

[aztecdriver]

I can't think of an any worse kiss of death for a match or club than if the word got out that a club wasn't fair, or it was hinky...or pulling some sort of shady stuff.

Very True!

I used to shoot at an IDPA club years ago that had this very thing happy. The new MD takes over and starts doing hinky shit. He started applying the rules differently to different people. He made questioanble calls, etc. Now, people just don't turn out in droves like they used to. The old match director worked his ass off to build up the club, then the new guy shows up and tanks it.

edit: spelling

It's also why we have another avenue to go to - our section coordinators. It's their job to help the MDs out - and I do mean help. Sometimes they've lost their way - and need a shove back in the right direction.

[ihatepickles]

This is a game

We are in agreement. I use this story as a real world example though of the dynamics of club matches. I have a higher opinion of the rules knowledge and adherence of the Benosverse crowd than I do of the rank and file match attendees.

At matches, feelings do get hurt. I'm not saying we should blow off the rulebook, but the topic of discussion is when to speak up?

I'd personally favor a well run match by the book over a lax one, but if I Maku Mozo I have to admit I know of shooters that feel the opposite.

[remoandiris]

I've heard MD's actually say, "This is my match, I'll run it like I want."

I've heard and used this too. Usually in response to someone who wants to argue with a stage, starting position or something else they don't like. Never a rules issue, just a "I don't like doing that" issue.

I'm not going to stand around and argue with anyone. If you don't like it, take over the volunteer job of running the match, coime out and design/put up a stage you do like, or shoot somewhere else.

[Jim Norman]

I will argue for a point, but will concede it graciously when it is not there. Enforcing the rules is the ONLY way to get the rules enforced. Yes, I said that. If you don't enforce the rules, who else will? We are ALL the OTHER GUY to someone else. This doesn't mean we need to be A-holes and pick at nits, but we do need to make sure the rules are enforced fairly and evenly across ALL shooters from "this is my first match" all the way to "I am the greatest M or GM ever to walk the face of the earth".

Now in the case of this is my first match, this is not a safety violation so one might take him aside and explain the rule and either reshoot or let it stand, (Yes some may say that this is not fair, 1st match, lower level non-safety related rule it would be a good will thing to explain and let it go, we want this shooter to like us and to return and become one with us), in the case of one that has been shooting USPSA for a while, no, they get a bump to Open. Sorry, it sucks, but the Da Rules call for it.

I have had shooters tell me I missed a N/S and I have had shooters stand strategically so as to block my view of a N/S. I applaud the first. I try to make it a point to look really well at the N/S targets AND at the edges of ports and ends of walls when a shooter takes a long shot as sometimes the wall doesn't stop a bullet and there is an A that is really a Miss. You don't have to let the shooter sign his scoresheet until YOU are ready to have it signed. Take the extra 5 seconds and be sure.

I think we are too lax in scoring and equipment at the local level. Very few matches Chrono at the local level and very few have calibration ammo for steel. Now that the calibration is done with Sub-Minor loads, the knuckle test will usually suffice UNLESS a piece of steel is hit and fails to fall. Then there is only one correct answer, calibrate or declare the steel as broken or out of place and reset and reshoot.

So when to speak up? Done in a respectful and non-confrontational manner, probably Always. If the rules aren't enforced, they are no longer rules, but merely suggestions. We have a RULEBOOK not a SUGGESTION BOOK in USPSA.

[Nik Habicht]

At a recent local, Level 1 match, we had a 10 target, 20 round stage. Gun is holstered but UNLOADED at start. Shooter shoots first 10 rounds, reloads shoots last 10. I noticed that he didn't go to slide lock before reloading. As soon as he's done, score keeper asks "what division" and the reply is "production." Then the RO turns around and asks "Why didn't you go to slide lock before the reload?" And shooter replies "The first magazine can have 11 rounds in it." RO says okay and moves on to next shooter.

So, it's a level 1 match. I'm fairly new. I didn't know any of the other shooters. I was out there to have fun, didn't want to be an a-hole, and certainly didn't want to see the guy moved to Open! I told myself I'll mention privately to the shooter later in the match that he's mistaken. He didn't appear to be a new shooter either. However, I totally forgot about as the day progressed. I'm fairly certain that if I had spoken up the rest of the morning would not have been so fun.

What do others do when they see an issue in this situation? Just curious.

NOTE: If I'm wrong about the rule, then this post is moot.

You're not wrong, and I've been in the unfortunate position of having to move friends to open, in one case after I warned the friend prior to the stage to not start with mags loaded with more than ten rounds.....

[EkuJustice]

On the Chrono at locals I have never seen it for the simple reason whos gonna do it? I don't see a list of people willing to sit there shooting everyones ammo over the chrono and not shoot the match nor do I see anyone willing to offer up a chrono to let everyone shoot their gun across and see how long it is before it gets shot.

On the calibration, it really isnt common here to do it as most will just shoot it till it falls. Basically shortest barrel 9mm on the squad pops it a little low with factory ammo.

Regardless of the "correct" way I just don't see it changing when its a volunteer sport and the RM/MD can't even enjoy the match they put on having to deal with running to calibrate steel, setting up a chrono etc. Also the fact chrono adds an extra "stage" to the match to stick around for. At a level 1 local match with some bragging rights for the week, people let the small non safety issues go

[Flexmoney]

When to speak up...

...at the match, before the scores are finalized.

How to do that? That might take some finesse.

[BillD]

I've been married 3 times Flex, I'm not real good at finessing....

[Jim Norman]

Chrono at a local. We did and we will again...

...Soon.

What we do is use declared weight and shoot it. We have a couple people that will shoot a few stages and then go sit chrono so no one is generally tied to the table for the whole match and everyone gets to shoot at a reasonable pace.

It is true most people will shoot the steel down, but on occasion you may shoot, know you had a good sight picture, hear it ring and be long gone, only to hear Mike on Steel at the end. Right now we generally just accept it, unless the steel is obviously broken or so badly out of place that it wouldn't fall with a howitzer.

Steel needs to be checked with the knuckle test at the very least. Which brings up my favorite invention yet to be invented and that is the ballistic hammer for verifying steel. I will someday get it built. It should be very simple and can be used at anytime even before the 'legal' shooting times on a range. But that is a different story.

[Flexmoney]

I've been married 3 times Flex, I'm not real good at finessing....

Then how did you talk 3 different women into marrying you!! ??

[BillD]

I've been married 3 times Flex, I'm not real good at finessing....

Then how did you talk 3 different women into marrying you!! ??

You can fool anyone for a little while

[West Texas Granny]

I've been married 3 times Flex, I'm not real good at finessing....

Sounds to me like a Grand Master in the Art of Finesse.

But to stay on topic how to you get to 11 rounds after the start. Reload after the buzzer sounds?.

[theycallmeingot]

When I printed up business cards, I included just my name and my "assistant match director" 's name and cell phone numbers. I hope it was eye searingly obvious that my email address wasn't on the business card.

sorry brad! i'll stop emailing you...

[Rob Boudrie]

I've been married 3 times Flex, I'm not real good at finessing....

Sounds to me like a Grand Master in the Art of Finesse.

Or a Mormon

[ihatepickles]

But to stay on topic how to you get to 11 rounds after the start. Reload after the buzzer sounds?.

To be clear on the Production rules, you can have 11 rounds in the gun. The problem comes up if you have 11 in the magazine after the start signal.

Appendix D4, Item 9 - Maximum ammunition capacity

Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

So if the stage briefing requires an unloaded gun at the start signal and during the CoF you fire 11 rounds without a mag change, it's clear you began with 11 rounds in a magazine. It one of the special conditions to be aware of as a Production shooter.