Skydiver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Is it legal in the WSB to stipulate that the gun start unloaded and holstered, the loading device to be used be empty, and that all rounds to be used be loose on a table? Edited October 3, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Sure, if you want to be the most hated stage designer that day. Jim G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Is it legal in the WSB to stipulate that the gun start unloaded and holstered, the loading device to be used be empty, and that all rounds to be used be loose on a table? How about you read the rulebook, cite the relevant rules, and then ask the question if it still exists? That would help..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Is it legal in the WSB to stipulate that the gun start unloaded and holstered, the loading device to be used be empty, and that all rounds to be used be loose on a table? How about you read the rulebook, cite the relevant rules, and then ask the question if it still exists? That would help..... Ah, but that was the quandary at a match today. The closest thing I could find was that 8.1.3 allows for alternate ready conditions, and that the tail end of 8.1.4 seems to only talk about the loaded state of the gun (and reloads). 8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing. 8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendix D), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a handgun. Written stage briefings may only stipulate when the handgun is to be loaded or when mandatory reloads are required (when permitted under Rules 1.1.5.1 and 1.1.5.2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 {sigh} 8.1.3 refers to "...ready conditions that may be different to those stated above." "Those stated above..." are alll related to the handgun ready condition for the start of a CoF. 8.1.3 states,8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing. While 8.1.3 seems to dictate the condition of the gun at Make ready, I suppose it could be construed to allow a stage designer to mandate that ammunition necessary for the CoF must be outside of a loading device. Please go forward with that idea and let us know how it turns out. I presume you are planning to run a stage at a USPSA match with this restriction, or is this just another, "Gee.....what if....?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 {sigh} 8.1.3 refers to "...ready conditions that may be different to those stated above." "Those stated above..." are alll related to the handgun ready condition for the start of a CoF. 8.1.3 states,8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing. While 8.1.3 seems to dictate the condition of the gun at Make ready, I suppose it could be construed to allow a stage designer to mandate that ammunition necessary for the CoF must be outside of a loading device. Please go forward with that idea and let us know how it turns out. I presume you are planning to run a stage at a USPSA match with this restriction, or is this just another, "Gee.....what if....?" No, I wasn't planning on such a stage. ( I don't want my tires slashed. ) A short course popped up in today's match with this as the ready condition. There was the question of the stage's legality. (Actually, the bullets weren't quite loose on the table -- They were in a bowl attached to the table.) From what I heard it was an average of 2 seconds per round from beep, to first shot fired for magazine fed guns. I didn't hear how revolver shooters fared in the stage. I wouldn't be surprised if video of this will be posted on YouTube soon. (Following your past advice, I just posted the question plain without any What-ifs, pointing out rules, definitions, etc. Somehow that didn't work too well. Ah, well. Gotta find the middle ground somewhere.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If this type of start is currently allowed I would petition to change the rules so that this is NOT allowed. Mag fed guns not a big problem other than the time spent on what I would hope would have been a 6 shot stage. For Revo shooters this would be a DISASTER! Those without moon clips would not be at a big disadvantage, but those with moon clips! I have seen this type of start with shotgun, all rounds in a bucket/bowl/box/drawer, empty gun, lying in bed... Only thing missing was a trigger lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Is this sport about shooting or loading magazines? If this is what your customers enjoy, have at it. I know I would stop giving my money to a match if they had stages like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Years back at an Outlaw match the MD wanted us to start with our guns field stripped. He just about had to run for the car. We didn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 There is also a concern on shooter safety. Some of those mags have real sharp lips. Trying to load one in a small panic is likely to result in some sliced and diced fingers. Have a bandaid box handy. Jim G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If this type of start is currently allowed I would petition to change the rules so that this is NOT allowed. Mag fed guns not a big problem other than the time spent on what I would hope would have been a 6 shot stage. For Revo shooters this would be a DISASTER! Those without moon clips would not be at a big disadvantage, but those with moon clips! I have seen this type of start with shotgun, all rounds in a bucket/bowl/box/drawer, empty gun, lying in bed... Only thing missing was a trigger lock. I think it could be fine, if it was a very short stage. If I were to do something this silly, it might be a single U.S. popper at 35 yards.... Great -- a five point stage..... Wonder what the HHF would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If this type of start is currently allowed I would petition to change the rules so that this is NOT allowed. Mag fed guns not a big problem other than the time spent on what I would hope would have been a 6 shot stage. For Revo shooters this would be a DISASTER! Those without moon clips would not be at a big disadvantage, but those with moon clips! I have seen this type of start with shotgun, all rounds in a bucket/bowl/box/drawer, empty gun, lying in bed... Only thing missing was a trigger lock. I think it could be fine, if it was a very short stage. If I were to do something this silly, it might be a single U.S. popper at 35 yards.... Great -- a five point stage..... Wonder what the HHF would be? MOON CLIPS! If no one was shooting a Revo, OK, maybe even 6 shots, but if a revo is in the match, I would most definitely nix the stage or at least change the start. I hadn't thought about sharp edges on mags although that should NOT enter into the discussion, your gear should not be UNSAFE and if your mag lips are so sharp you fear cutting yourself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If your non shooting fiddle farts takes more time than the shooting, you got a bad stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We shot a stage like this once at an indoor range,they furnished the gun and bullets,38 revolver,load 5 shoot 5 and then go to your gun and shoot the remaining targets,it was actually fun,one target about 8yards down range,it was a little J frame,,everyone had to shoot the same gun,for the five shots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yikes! Where is it y'all are from?! Washington - remind me to take a some tylenol if I ever get to shoot a match up there? Actually, I probably would fair quite well on the stage because I still load all my mags with my own thumbs instead of a lula... that's beside the point... Joe has it right, what does putting bullets into a magazine on the clock have anything to do with a shooting sport. Someone's been watching too much Top Shot. Seriously, it may be legal, but it's just dumb. Please convey back to the club, and the designer, that small gimmicks and themes are ok to "flavor" the stage. Like beer mugs and tables, or mail slots and a mailbox or something like that - but when you make someone load a mag on the timer - all you are going to do is either, a) make sure all non-locals never come back and write your name on the back of an ammo box to be sure we don't shoot a match they are involved with and have some locals with some goofy ideas about what a "stage" should be like. For example - 50 yard dash to get the ammo can with your magazines DOWN RANGE , run it all the way back to where your gun JUST WAS POINTING AT YOU on a barrel is, open the can, put all your mags on your belt, THEN you can pick your gun up and start shooting. Sounds fun huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We shot a stage like this once at an indoor range,they furnished the gun and bullets,38 revolver,load 5 shoot 5 and then go to your gun and shoot the remaining targets,it was actually fun,one target about 8yards down range,it was a little J frame,,everyone had to shoot the same gun,for the five shots... Prop guns are nono's for handgun matches... but I'm off to work so I can't find where that's said... sounds like it would be something interesting - I'd replace the snubby with a DE 50AE.. Now were talking cannon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We shot a stage like this once at an indoor range,they furnished the gun and bullets,38 revolver,load 5 shoot 5 and then go to your gun and shoot the remaining targets,it was actually fun,one target about 8yards down range,it was a little J frame,,everyone had to shoot the same gun,for the five shots... Prop guns are nono's for handgun matches... but I'm off to work so I can't find where that's said... sounds like it would be something interesting - I'd replace the snubby with a DE 50AE.. Now were talking cannon Violates 5.1.9, but he didn't say it was a USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We shot a stage like this once at an indoor range,they furnished the gun and bullets,38 revolver,load 5 shoot 5 and then go to your gun and shoot the remaining targets,it was actually fun,one target about 8yards down range,it was a little J frame,,everyone had to shoot the same gun,for the five shots... Prop guns are nono's for handgun matches... but I'm off to work so I can't find where that's said... sounds like it would be something interesting - I'd replace the snubby with a DE 50AE.. Now were talking cannon Violates 5.1.9, but he didn't say it was a USPSA match. So they work for IDPA? Didn't know that... I should probably go shoot that sometime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I ran a 6 round stage like this at an IDPA match a while back that was advertised as 'revolver friendly'. It was after the major matches for the season, so we wanted to encourage people to shoot a different gun for fun. I simply stipulated that all ammo had to start in a small canning jar. I picked the jar size such that a moon clip, speedloader, or compact (G26 size) magazine would fit, but a full size mag wouldn't. I got the idea for that somewhere on this forum. I got a little bit of grumbling, but all the guys who brought revos loved it. I would never do it more than once a year or for more than 6 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yikes! Where is it y'all are from?! Washington - remind me to take a some tylenol if I ever get to shoot a match up there? Actually, I probably would fair quite well on the stage because I still load all my mags with my own thumbs instead of a lula... that's beside the point... Joe has it right, what does putting bullets into a magazine on the clock have anything to do with a shooting sport. Someone's been watching too much Top Shot. Stage name was "Inspired by Top Shot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We shot a stage like this once at an indoor range,they furnished the gun and bullets,38 revolver,load 5 shoot 5 and then go to your gun and shoot the remaining targets,it was actually fun,one target about 8yards down range,it was a little J frame,,everyone had to shoot the same gun,for the five shots... Prop guns are nono's for handgun matches... but I'm off to work so I can't find where that's said... sounds like it would be something interesting - I'd replace the snubby with a DE 50AE.. Now were talking cannon Violates 5.1.9, but he didn't say it was a USPSA match. So they work for IDPA? Didn't know that... I should probably go shoot that sometime... I have been to IDPA matches that start with a plastic AR in hand, then transition to a real handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yikes! Where is it y'all are from?! Washington - remind me to take a some tylenol if I ever get to shoot a match up there? Actually, I probably would fair quite well on the stage because I still load all my mags with my own thumbs instead of a lula... that's beside the point... Joe has it right, what does putting bullets into a magazine on the clock have anything to do with a shooting sport. Someone's been watching too much Top Shot. Stage name was "Inspired by Top Shot". Are you serious?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Yikes! Where is it y'all are from?! Washington - remind me to take a some tylenol if I ever get to shoot a match up there? Actually, I probably would fair quite well on the stage because I still load all my mags with my own thumbs instead of a lula... that's beside the point... Joe has it right, what does putting bullets into a magazine on the clock have anything to do with a shooting sport. Someone's been watching too much Top Shot. Stage name was "Inspired by Top Shot". Are you serious?? Yup. I think the stage was partly designed as little joke on Mike Hughes who usually shoots at that club, but I don't recall seeing Mike there that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 WOW did I mention this was a non uspsa match,,it simply was a weekly match,,run by the safest rules,load only when told to,,cold range,sorry he quit.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 We shot a stage like this once at an indoor range,they furnished the gun and bullets,38 revolver,load 5 shoot 5 and then go to your gun and shoot the remaining targets,it was actually fun,one target about 8yards down range,it was a little J frame,,everyone had to shoot the same gun,for the five shots... Prop guns are nono's for handgun matches... but I'm off to work so I can't find where that's said... sounds like it would be something interesting - I'd replace the snubby with a DE 50AE.. Now were talking cannon Violates 5.1.9, but he didn't say it was a USPSA match. So they work for IDPA? Didn't know that... I should probably go shoot that sometime... My quick read of the USPSA Multi-gun rules also seems to imply that stage guns are also allowed... granted I was just skimming to get a feel for how the rules worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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