ss+P Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 is it legal in production to modify your magazine by sanding or trimming the basepad of lets say an m&p mag. i have baby hands and i am not sure if i will do this, but i want to know if it is legal. i know this is the uspsa rules section, but if anyone knows if it would be idpa legal as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited. I don't see it authorized in the Production rules....but I don't think it would be against the rules either....You are allowed to add tape to the base pads.... Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSA box while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and basepads. I would think, as long as it fits the box, you would be good to go....But someone is gonna tell me I'm wrong, so let's hope you get some more answers...BTW, this was in relation to the USPSA question...I don't know about IDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I see no way to articulate legality of aftermarket basepads but at the same time not being able to modify factory ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I see no way to articulate legality of aftermarket basepads but at the same time not being able to modify factory ones. Spanky, some us be dumb...use small words please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biloxi23 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Does articulate mean the same thing as 'splain? ('splain isMississippi for explain for all my northern cousins out there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Shore are. Edited August 20, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss+P Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 well i am really slow then, is that a yes i can do it, or no i can't do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Legal. Grumpy posted the applicable rule. Legal in IDPA as well. Any mag/basepad is legal as long as it fits the box and isn't more than 1 ounce heavier than a standard mag. Edited August 20, 2011 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Legal. Grumpy posted the applicable rule. Questionable legality: Certainly you can use OEM or Aftermarket pads. Certainly you can apply grip/skateboard tape to mags/basepads. I see nothing else that "Specifically permits" modification of a factory basepad. Since that's the standard for the division, and the onus is on the shooter to provide a rules citation, it would appear that you could use aftermarket pads, or pads for another model of gun from the same manufacturer that's on the list, but you couldn't modify the OEM pad..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Looks to me like he just created an aftermarket pad At least that's how I thought the rule had been interpreted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Looks to me like he just created an aftermarket pad At least that's how I thought the rule had been interpreted. Looks to me like he created a prototype pad. If aftermarket, I can buy some, right? So can anyone else who wants one, right? Or the opportunity existed at some point.... Some guy in his basement creating his own gear -- closer to prototype, than aftermarket.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss+P Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 REally didn't think this question would bring this much discussion, i like it. i guess you can really argue it either way and it would depend on the MD of the match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I feel that sanding grinding the mag is allowed. I come to that conclusion because of this NROI ruling effective 8/7/08: Question: Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P? Answer: After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external. D4 21.7 is in the current rulebook published after that ruling says: Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSAbox while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and basepads. My reading of that is that the restriction from grinding the basepad is now lifted, and that it is not an external modification anymore. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I'd like to see the chain of rules to support that logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 That interpretation is still on the website and valid. I read the new verbiage in the rulebook as "do what you want in terms of OEM or aftermarket mags or basepads, including grip tape" as long as it fits the box and makes weight..... I'm not reading anything about grinding on base plates as being permissible -- so I'd check with John prior to entering a major..... I don't think I'd waste a lot of time looking for this particular violation, personally, but someone could get bit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) That interpretation is still on the website and valid. I read the new verbiage in the rulebook as "do what you want in terms of OEM or aftermarket mags or basepads, including grip tape" as long as it fits the box and makes weight..... I'm not reading anything about grinding on base plates as being permissible -- so I'd check with John prior to entering a major..... I don't think I'd waste a lot of time looking for this particular violation, personally, but someone could get bit.... You do have a point about the ruling still being published and therefore still valid. I'm a little confused, though. If the ruling is still valid, then that would also mean the following part of the ruling is still valid: After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? As I recall the phrase "dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun" was in the wording of the intermediate rulings posted between the initial publication of the 2008 rulebook and publication of the "2009 Production Rules Revisions" document. That document contains what is now 21.7 in the current published version of the rulebook. As I recall, the furor over "dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun" was that CZ various shooters couldn't use either the MecGar aftermarket mags because the after market mags had a thicker base pad, nor could they use the SP-01 mags with the rubber base pad with non-SP01 guns because the dimensions were not the same (eg thicker base pad). I thought that there was a collective sigh of relief when the "2009 Production Rules Revisions" document was published because "Prior restrictions have been lifted." I was under the impression that if a Glock shooter wanted to put on Pearce Grips base pad extensions, or +1 or +2 basepads, that was now legal as long as the gun still fit in the box and made weight. Do these still remain illegal? Or is it just the Pearce Grips are illegal, but the +1 or +2 pads are legal? And additionally, that means a lady shooting Production with her G-26 at a Level II match last year should have been bumped to Open because she was using G-17 mags with it. As far as I know there were no issues at chrono when the gun was inspected. (Shooting a G-26 in Open would have definitely sucked.) Edited August 21, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I ran all compact base-plates on my full size mags in Production with my M&P. That's fully legal, and S&W will send them to you for between free and $2. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 For me, it's a pretty simple question. If you can't point to a clause in the Production Division rules that *specifically* allows what you're trying to do, it is not a legal modification. I don't see a clause in the Production Division rules that *specifically* says it is okay to grind on base-pads. Remember that the onus is on the shooter - if you get called on it at a match, and you cannot show the clause that allows the mod... you're in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I ran all compact base-plates on my full size mags in Production with my M&P. That's fully legal, and S&W will send them to you for between free and $2. Jeff Yeah, I was going to ask...as I thought there were two different sizes of factory base pads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 What about stippling the basepad of a magazine? Is that legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 What about stippling the basepad of a magazine? Is that legal? Not by my reading of the rules..... Grip tape/Skateboard tape, yes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 What about stippling the basepad of a magazine? Is that legal? Not by my reading of the rules..... Grip tape/Skateboard tape, yes..... Yup - I'll disagree with that. 21.7 Magazines Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSA box while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and basepads Aftermarket . . . . . . . . . . .Items not manufactured by, or available directly from, the OFM. If you grind, alter or otherwise do what you want to a basepad - it's aftermarket in my book. Seems to fit the definition - it's not available from the manufacturer with stipiling on it. 21.7 clearly throws out any prior restrictions on magazine prior to June 2010, regardless if the aforementioned restriction was and is still available on the website - it's been superceded by the current rulebook with this clause. It's an aftermarket basepad to be used on the magazine that fits within the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 It's an aftermarket basepad to be used on the magazine that fits within the box. I know for a fact that's what we were after when re-writing that part of the rules. (We being unidentified board member(s) who happened to be nice enough to consult me, while re-writing the Production Rules a couple of years ago.) My argument was that if it fit the box and made weight, it would be easy to check/enforce, and that given the ten round limit, no one was gaining a significant advantage, even if they wanted to run a 140 in Glock 26.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss+P Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Thanks guys i was not aware that there where two differnt size of "legal" or factory basepads for the M&P's. If i go that route i will look into those. thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I posed the following to John Amidon: "John; I was hoping you could answer a quick question on magazine basepads in Production Division. Appendix D4, Rule 21.7 states that grip tape is allowed on magazine basepads, but does that apply to stippling as well? In this instance no material has been sanded or ground off, and the dimensions are the same. The basepad has been stippled to simulate grip tape. Thank you for your time." His response: "Not a problem. John" So stippling is legal. I'll let you guys continue to argue about whether it's ok to sand or grind down a basepad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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