650 versus LnL

[M1911]

Sorry to bring back this old debate. I've read some old threads and have learned that Hornady has been fixing some issues with the LnL, so I wondering if there is a consensus now on which machine to get.

I've probably reloaded about 30,000 rounds on my Dillon 550, mostly 45 ACP and .38 Spcl, but also some 9mm and 10mm. After having my second squib round in a competition (yesterday it was in a major match), it is time for me to get a press with 5 stations -- I just can't physically see inside a .38 Spcl case to visually verify the powder load.

My experience with the 550 isn't entirely satisfactory. The primer system is a weakness, requiring frequent cleanings to ensure that the primer bar moves to full travel, and used primers often do not end up in the bucket. I have called Dillon customer service on occasion, and while they are pleasant, I have found better advice on debugging problems with the press here than I ever got from Dillon tech support. So I'm not a Dillon cool-aid drinker. Over all, they make a good product and support it well, but they aren't perfect. On the other hand, I do have some Dillon loyalty that is making me pause.

The advice that I was given by several competitors I know who have a LnL is that the purchase price is similar (a bit lower on the LnL), but that the caliber changes are significantly less expensive on the LnL than on the Dillon.

I do have concern about the LnL case feeder. I seem to read that it is problematic, particularly for some calibers, whereas the Dillon works well. It seems to me that I would really want a casefeeder that works.

I don't want this to devolve into "X sucks" or "Y is great" or "only X really supports you." If you have either machine, can you tell me what you like, what you don't like, and would you buy it again?

One other question: what accessories do I need for a LnL to load .38 Spcl?

Edited August 7, 2011 by M1911

[GuyC]

The LNL press is great, but the case feeder is garbage. If I did it again I would buy a 650.

[Rob Tompkins]

Don't overload it and the case feeder works fine. The adjustment for rifle can take a few min and .223 is small enough that it can be very problematic if you overload the feeder. If you use the proper feeder plate pistol has not been a problem

The LnL with Ez-Ject is what I have and I've not had any real problems. The way the stations are arranged, its very, very easy to inspect the powder charge before you seat a bullet. Also, the size of the machine gives you good room to work in and the shell holder systems makes it very easy to pull or insert cases anywhere along the process for inspection or fault resolution.

IMHO both produce good ammo and at the same rate or close enough to not really matter. Each has different aspects that some folks like and others don't. I went with the LnL for easy caliber changes thinking I'd load few of this then a few of that. Didn't work out that way as I just find I like to load in bigger batches. But if you do want to load for more than a few calibers, I think the total cost of ownership is lower with the LnL but not so much as to notice over the life of the machine.

You'll be happy with either one.

[98sr20ve]

opps

Edited August 8, 2011 by 98sr20ve

[98sr20ve]

I got a LnL at the end of 2010 and spent about 5 months trying to get it to prime SP CCI primers so that they would fire out of my reduced power striker spring Glock. Previously I had a 550 and it loaded ammo perfectly (but your right the priming system needs to be clean and some primers miss the cup). LnL casefeeder is a PITA and noisy compared to the Dillon. It would never load ammo fast. If you went faster then about 7 mins or so per hundred rounds it would choke cases would miss the shellplate. After two different LnL's I gave up and got a 650. Within minutes I was up and running and cranking out ammo that worked in my Glock. Same primers as before. It's easy to load 100 rds in 5 mins if you want to go that fast. Get the 650 in my opinion.

[CocoBolo]

Owning both, let me make this easy for you, If you are not getting a case feeder Hornady, with Case Feeder XL650. I disagree with the Hornady having priming issues, loaded 50K plus and they all go to the bottom. A new reloader asked me last week how do you know how far to push the handle, WTF you push it all the way every time.

The Dillon powder check is very nice, the audible alert really works. It can be adapted to the Hornady.

The thing that increases loading time is the exceptions, the Hornady with case feeder will throw more exceptions than the XL650 with a case feeder.

Getting everything right, Hornady wins this one hands down, the Dillon has lots and lots of things to adjust, load a 1000 rounds come back the next day and something needs adjustment. Once you set the index, and the primer feed on the Hornady your done, there isn't anything else unless you have a case feeder. Chek out the XL650 manual.

In order for the Hornady case feeding to work as well as the Dillon, requires a rock solid level mounting, and like the Dillon a small piece of cardborad inserted at the top to keep cases from turning over. The Hornady case feed needs adjustment and I normally get it right by the time I have done 100-200 rounds, the Dillon has no adjustment on the case feed and needs none.

Edited August 8, 2011 by CocoBolo

[Bob DuBois]

My only regret on the 650 is I didn't buy it sooner. Did a little homemade gasket to keep primers from missing the cup but other than that it's been great.

Haven't loaded on a LnL.

[Loop51]

I own both a LnL and a 650 and here is my 2 cents...

The LnL I bought first (less than a year ago), thinking I didnt need the more expensive 650 to meet my needs. Turns out, I was right and wrong. If the LnL would run 100% all the time, it would be a decent press for the casual shooter and maybe be an ok, cheaper substitute for someone not looking to spend 650 money. However, from day 1, it had issues. Most all of those revolved around the priming system. Hornady's customer service is excellent and after numerous calls to them and many new parts being shipped out, it was still not able to run more than about 50-75 rounds without a stoppage. I dont have a lot of free time to sit and mess with the thing so this just wasn't acceptable.

I basically decided if I was going to be serious about reloading, I needed a far more robust and capable piece of hardware so I got the 650 a few months ago and never looked back...It is night and day compared to the Hornady in build quality, reliability and overall useability. I cant comment on rounds per hour of the two as the Hornady has never ran for a solid hour...but the 650 EASILY gets 500+ with the case feeder.

Now, I still have the LnL. I set it up for .45ACP as I dont shoot that in matches, just for fun, so I probably only load 100-200 rounds of it a month...If that. The 650 is set up for 9mm and gets used twice a week for some all-out loading sessions and never misses a beat.

Anyway, hope that helps.

[DWFAN]

I just loaded 3500 rounds on a LnL from Friday until yesterday. (loaded 5500 rounds 4th of july weekend fri-mon) My only big complaint is the length of travel of the handle, and how low you have to go to get there. Sitting that low, makes it hard to see in every case. I also wish it had a little more leverage. IMO, the case feeder is a weakpoint, but mine seems to run ok.

I've only had high primers when its my fault. I've loaded CCI, WIN, Tula, Federal.. Now I run 100% Federal, just because I like to keep 1 primer on hand. Fed's are 100% in my CZ's and light mainspring Bianchi gun.

The case feeder isnt 100%, but I dont have a rock solid mounting surface so I'll put up with some failures.

All of the above is in 9mm.

I have only loaded 9mm and .223 with the case feeder, and .223 was much more flawless. My 9mm shell plate may be out of spec, it fails on the same station when it does.

Once I'm out of my apartment, and into a house, my next press will be a 1050, which I'll more than likely use for 9mm and .223, and keep the LnL for .45, .38, .40/10mm.

Disclaimer, I've never loaded on a 650, so I dont know what I'm missing.

[CocoBolo]

I just loaded 3500 rounds on a LnL from Friday until yesterday. (loaded 5500 rounds 4th of july weekend fri-mon) My only big complaint is the length of travel of the handle, and how low you have to go to get there. Sitting that low, makes it hard to see in every case. I also wish it had a little more leverage. IMO, the case feeder is a weakpoint, but mine seems to run ok.

I've only had high primers when its my fault. I've loaded CCI, WIN, Tula, Federal.. Now I run 100% Federal, just because I like to keep 1 primer on hand. Fed's are 100% in my CZ's and light mainspring Bianchi gun.

The case feeder isnt 100%, but I dont have a rock solid mounting surface so I'll put up with some failures.

All of the above is in 9mm.

I have only loaded 9mm and .223 with the case feeder, and .223 was much more flawless. My 9mm shell plate may be out of spec, it fails on the same station when it does.

Once I'm out of my apartment, and into a house, my next press will be a 1050, which I'll more than likely use for 9mm and .223, and keep the LnL for .45, .38, .40/10mm.

Disclaimer, I've never loaded on a 650, so I dont know what I'm missing.

Here they are side by side:

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=749

What you are missing.

1. The XL650 has less leverage than the LNL, but a bit shorter throw.

2. You don't have to hunt down 12 different allen wrenches to adjust everything.

3. You don't have to pick up a zillion spent primers off the floor.

4. You don't have to buy an expensive conversion kit, just a shell plate.

5. You have a much better powder measure that is easier to adjust.

6. You don't have to take two screws out and a fail safe rod to dump the powder measure.

7. You don't have to manually cycle the powder measure 6 to 10 times to get all the powder out.

8 . You don't have to pick the missed primers out of the exit shute.

9. Your not going to lose the detent ball when cleaning the press, and when it falls down in there hunt up a small magnet to get it out.

10. You won't be losing the case retaining pins, or worse bending or breaking them.

11. You don't have to stop every couple hundred rounds and tighted the fail safe rod.

12. You won't look into the primer exit tray and wonder where those little shards of metal came form or why is there powder in the tray.

13. You won't be digging thru the spare parts kit to find that the part you need does not come in the kit.

Sat down tonight to run a few hundred more 9 mm major rounds, started out ok then ran into hard primer seating, this was the little lever that rides against the case, had to tighten the adjustment, only two differnt allen wrenches. Ok a couple hundred down the line, couldn't seat a primer to save my life, it was the little block that works the lever that advances the primer wheel, it just wasn't going far enough, ok moved the block down as far as it would go and now its back on spec.

Couple hunder more rounds, now the f'ing thing is biting a chunk out of the brass going into the sizing die, stop and adjust the rod that stops the block that pushes the case into the shell plate.

Ok did I say you will miss all the complicated adjustments of everything, and once right it runs for a few thousand then repeat.

When the index is correct on the Hornady, and you have the primer slide adjusted correctly your biggest issue is getting powder into the primer punch and it is easy to clean, you can load many thousands of rounds without every hunting up an allen wrench.

Ok, I'm thinking 1050 as I write this, because I load 9 major and it annoys the crap out of me when I hit a GECO or a WCC piece of brass. I could use the primer swager.

I load lots of 9 major on the Hornady using the bullet feeder, but its set up for 45 right now, I need to finish those and set it back up for my 9 major.

Honestly the XL650 works very nicely with 38SC and 40 S&W but it has never liked 9 mm, maybe I need to call the Exorcist. And to think I had two of them for a while, sold one kept the LNL.

By all means the xl650 case feeding mechanics is better, the case feeder the big thing up top is almost identical and you can switch the case feed wheels between the two machines. The number of Brass Rains, and upside down cases is very similar, and as I mentioned in an earlier post a piece of card board cures both of those issues. Neither of the case feeders can keep up with me when I'm using the bullet feeder, I have to wait on the cases to catch up.

[GuyC]

LNL case feeder problems

-Top: case turns over and begins to back cases up until they overflow.

-Top: randomly drops cases on my head

-Bottom: continently drops 2 cases or none- it seems the perfect place is in between the two settings but the adjustments seem to be sub par and likes to move.

-Bottom cases like to fall on the hand that pushes the case into the shell plate and fall off the press.

-Bottom: the assembly where the actuator moves and drops the cases seems to move because the mounting bracket sucks.

Press problems:

my only problem with the press is the the drive hub is made out of pot metal and has broken three times. It broke again this weekend and I will make my monthly call to Hornandys CS.

The press is great, but I cant go 30-40 rounds with out trying to fix something with the case feeder. My LNL can do about 300 a hour.

I have had no problems with the priming system or the timing of the press. If I could take the LNL press and the Dillon case feeder it would make a great press.

I am really tired of messing around with the case feeder. It is just a PITA, and I will trade for a Dillon 650 if anyone thinks the LNL is better. I use to like to reload, but no I hate it because I know I am going to have to mess with the case feeder.

[ringer]

I have a LNL and after a few teething problems it is running like clockwork with 9mm. The teething problems I was having related to the Winchester brass I was using. It was hanging up on the shellplate and causing the case to tip and make the whole process les than enjoyable. After switching to Starline brass the case feeder is running perfectly and the press is a joy to use.

[DWFAN]

Ive broke 2 drive hubs also. Both times it was me forcing it when a primer was half in the case, half out in the tube binding things up. I have to run the primer punch fully extended to deprime some of the crap brass that comes through. Geco is the worst, like Coco mentioned.

I load 100% winchester and starline for my bianchi loads, if winchester binds up your shell plate then call hornady and get a new plate.

[mizer67]

I've only loaded on the LNL. I've considered switching to a 650, but not taken the plunge. I do not have a casefeeder, so I cannot comment on the issues with Hornady's. It's on my list of wants for the next few months, so we'll see.

The things I like about the LNL:

Few ajustments required. Torque the heck out of the powder measure arm screw and shellplate retaining screw and you rarely have to mess with anything while loading unless those screws loosen or you get media stuck between the primer slider and sub-plate that needs cleaned out. I've only touched the indexing pawls once in the ~2 years I've owned the machine, and only set the primer cam wire once.

Ease and low cost of caliber changes. Dies, extra LNL bushings and a shellplate and you're GTG.

Easy to inspect cases for powder (9mm, .40, .45).

Good powder measure. My thrown Tightgroup 9mm loads have an SD of 6, over 100 rounds.

PTE Hornady sells is junk.

Things I do not like:

Priming system. I've had major issues with Wolf SP primers getting them seated enough to fire, and there's little leverage at priming, IMO. Switching to Win, I get 2 per 1K that still FTF, and with Federals, 0 per 1K.

Have to shim the dies to keep them from backing out. Very minor.

To me, the priming is the only weakness worth noting in the machine. I'd be very satisfied with my LNL if it wasn't for the issues I've had getting it to prime consistently. I think tolerance stacking plays a roll (why some have issues and others to not), as well as shoddy machining on some of the shell plates.

I can get 300/hr loading primer tubes and putting cases in by hand, without rushing. If I needed more than ~5-600 rounds / week, I might look for another machine like a 1050.

Edited August 9, 2011 by mizer67

[DWFAN]

This past weekend, I can do 700 in just over an hour, but the press and case feeder are running really well, and the brass had all the crap (.380, WCC and GECO) taken out of it. That really slows down the process. But thats too long for me to go straight through. 3-400 and I take a break. Then I load my primer tubes while watching tv.

[CocoBolo]

The Brass Rain and Upside down cases from either the Dillon or Hornady case feeder are exactly the same.

The cure is take an empty primer box and cut a piece of the card board into the shape of the feed drop at the top of the case feeder. What this does is narrow the opening enough that a case cannot turn side ways in the shute. This makes that horrible problem go away on either case feeder.

Adjusting the hornady case feeder mechanism that drops the cases well that takes some expierence, real men do not read instructions or call for help, you know, so you have to work with it till you understand how it works. It is however an imperfect science, and 40 S&W is the worst, 9 mm, 38SC, 45 all easy and simple and I can run hundreds thru without an incident till you get a 40 case inside a 45 then aaaahhh crap. By the way if you are not good at sorting brass by caliber then you will hate any case feeder.

The most common mistake I see on the LNL is running the shell plate loose, this contributes to cases falling over, and you breaking the decapping pin trying to puncture the case from the side, takes away your ability to seat primers, of course you can just put a thin flat washier under the primer punch and get a few extra 001's, but the loose shell plate heck that takes a bunch of 001's away. If you are having a few high primers in 9 mm, try this. Take your reloads and put them in a plastic bag shake it up a bit and see how many primers come out, you might be picking up some of my 9 major fired brass, but then you would have a bunch of primers in your tumbler as well. I had some failures to fire in one open gun, I put a dawson extened firing pin in end of problem, it must drive them home then set them off.

I thougt of one more problem I have only had on the Dillon, and it is beyond aggrivating "Primer Pull Back" yeap you whizzing along at warp 3 and the upstroke stops short. Pull the case and there is a primer with a nipple in the middle, its been shot the primer punch has pressed a nipple into it and its again seated. Drives me nuts. The cure well take the primer punch to the grinder and give it a 30 degree slant to the tip radius it a bit and slap it back in. Now I thought that this was indiginous to the Dillon Die since I never had it on the LNL, well not so, I started using the Hornady die in the Dillion and it caught the same disease, started pulling them back in.

Ok to be fair a problem that I only have on the LNL, case falls over side ways going into the sizing die, by the time you figure out something is afowl you got a bent or broken decapping pin, if you use a lee Die you just put a hole in the brass.

The "PTE" aka real name PTX die, or powder thru expander, I have to agree that the first ones I got from Hornady were usless pieces of crap. When I got the bullet feeder they sent a PTX die that actually works and I also got the PTX limiter aparatus that limits the travel on the powder measure, this is a workable solution, if you have a case feeder and bullet feeder be aware that the window of alignment is narrow, the powder plunger will get caught on the upright for the case feeder, I load about 10 squibbs in a row when this happened to me. If you are not running a bullet feeder I recommend using a seperate expander die.

Ok point for the Dillon the powder/expander die is very good, albiet hard to adjust. This is enough reason to justify a powder die and tool head for every caliber.

Since I got my Dillion xl650's in gun deals, and I sold the guns and other stuff and still made money and kept the reolader, I have no investment to protect they were free, now the Hornady I bought with hard earned money and it was worth every penny.

One more point, with the Dillon you can always get your money back when you go to sell it, the Hornady nope not going to happen, its like a Sabaru great machine see few for sale used but when they sell you take a hit.

Actually you can't go wrong with either, each has it faults and strong points and either will server you for a life time of loading.

[98sr20ve]

1. The XL650 has less leverage than the LNL, but a bit shorter throw.

Hornady told me the 650 has better priming leverage then the LnL. I don't think they would lie about that.

Having owned the LnL for 5 months. I can't find much about it I like better then both my Dillons. Powder Measure included. It's a rust bucket. PITA.

[98sr20ve]

The Brass Rain and Upside down cases from either the Dillon or Hornady case feeder are exactly the same.

Thats like saying a Corrola is the same as Lexus because the both have wheels and get you to the store.

Hornady Case feeder is not nearly as well made as the Dillon. Never mind my Dillon one worked with no mods and the LnL had to be taken apart and holes elongated just to get it not to rain brass on my head. It's made from cheap plastic and is noisy.

[jmorris]

I have had Dillon loaders for over 25 years but did get an LNL a few years ago to use up 20#'s of extruded powder that was given to me. Despite claims that the Hornady powder measure likes extruded powders better, I found it does not. It also needs other parts to work with small charges. It is a lot quicker to empty than the Dillon. If you don't keep an eye on it it will even loosen and come out on its own. All of that can be fixed.

The half index on up and other half on down, at first, seemed to be a fantastic idea until I had to (loading rifle rounds) stick the bullet up into the die and place it on the case mouth once it came around. If you placed it on the case as you would the dillon, the tip of the bullet would already be high enough to hit the die as the shell plate finished the 2nd half of the index.

If I didn't already have far better (at least in my mind) machines I would use it for pistol rounds if I felt money was tight. I can tell you I haven't changed a thing on my 9mm minor load 650 in years. Fill collators with brass and bullets, tube with primers and go. Add oil and chrono everynow and then.

[roadapple]

I just loaded 3500 rounds on a LnL from Friday until yesterday. (loaded 5500 rounds 4th of july weekend fri-mon) My only big complaint is the length of travel of the handle, and how low you have to go to get there. Sitting that low, makes it hard to see in every case. I also wish it had a little more leverage. IMO, the case feeder is a weakpoint, but mine seems to run ok.

I've only had high primers when its my fault. I've loaded CCI, WIN, Tula, Federal.. Now I run 100% Federal, just because I like to keep 1 primer on hand. Fed's are 100% in my CZ's and light mainspring Bianchi gun.

The case feeder isnt 100%, but I dont have a rock solid mounting surface so I'll put up with some failures.

All of the above is in 9mm.

I have only loaded 9mm and .223 with the case feeder, and .223 was much more flawless. My 9mm shell plate may be out of spec, it fails on the same station when it does.

Once I'm out of my apartment, and into a house, my next press will be a 1050, which I'll more than likely use for 9mm and .223, and keep the LnL for .45, .38, .40/10mm.

Disclaimer, I've never loaded on a 650, so I dont know what I'm missing.

Here they are side by side:

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=749

What you are missing.

1. The XL650 has less leverage than the LNL, but a bit shorter throw.

2. You don't have to hunt down 12 different allen wrenches to adjust everything.

3. You don't have to pick up a zillion spent primers off the floor.

4. You don't have to buy an expensive conversion kit, just a shell plate.

5. You have a much better powder measure that is easier to adjust.

6. You don't have to take two screws out and a fail safe rod to dump the powder measure.

7. You don't have to manually cycle the powder measure 6 to 10 times to get all the powder out.

8 . You don't have to pick the missed primers out of the exit shute.

9. Your not going to lose the detent ball when cleaning the press, and when it falls down in there hunt up a small magnet to get it out.

10. You won't be losing the case retaining pins, or worse bending or breaking them.

11. You don't have to stop every couple hundred rounds and tighted the fail safe rod.

12. You won't look into the primer exit tray and wonder where those little shards of metal came form or why is there powder in the tray.

13. You won't be digging thru the spare parts kit to find that the part you need does not come in the kit.

Sat down tonight to run a few hundred more 9 mm major rounds, started out ok then ran into hard primer seating, this was the little lever that rides against the case, had to tighten the adjustment, only two differnt allen wrenches. Ok a couple hundred down the line, couldn't seat a primer to save my life, it was the little block that works the lever that advances the primer wheel, it just wasn't going far enough, ok moved the block down as far as it would go and now its back on spec.

Couple hunder more rounds, now the f'ing thing is biting a chunk out of the brass going into the sizing die, stop and adjust the rod that stops the block that pushes the case into the shell plate.

Ok did I say you will miss all the complicated adjustments of everything, and once right it runs for a few thousand then repeat.

When the index is correct on the Hornady, and you have the primer slide adjusted correctly your biggest issue is getting powder into the primer punch and it is easy to clean, you can load many thousands of rounds without every hunting up an allen wrench.

Ok, I'm thinking 1050 as I write this, because I load 9 major and it annoys the crap out of me when I hit a GECO or a WCC piece of brass. I could use the primer swager.

I load lots of 9 major on the Hornady using the bullet feeder, but its set up for 45 right now, I need to finish those and set it back up for my 9 major.

Honestly the XL650 works very nicely with 38SC and 40 S&W but it has never liked 9 mm, maybe I need to call the Exorcist. And to think I had two of them for a while, sold one kept the LNL.

By all means the xl650 case feeding mechanics is better, the case feeder the big thing up top is almost identical and you can switch the case feed wheels between the two machines. The number of Brass Rains, and upside down cases is very similar, and as I mentioned in an earlier post a piece of card board cures both of those issues. Neither of the case feeders can keep up with me when I'm using the bullet feeder, I have to wait on the cases to catch up.

I'm glad it works for you.

If you can get Hornady to replace my LNL, then I might be less hostile to their inconsideration to the pile they sold tome, and don't want to make right.

[Foxbat]

Buy the 650.

[98sr20ve]

I'm glad it works for you.

If you can get Hornady to replace my LNL, then I might be less hostile to their inconsideration to the pile they sold tome, and don't want to make right.

I don't know how long you have had the LnL. For me it was easy to get it replaced. I just asked for a manager, calmly told him all THEY had done to try and fix it and tell them that it still did not work right. They gladly offered to take it back and exchange it. Just be firm and polite.

When they send a new one sell it.

[jbrown13]

The Brass Rain and Upside down cases from either the Dillon or Hornady case feeder are exactly the same.

The cure is take an empty primer box and cut a piece of the card board into the shape of the feed drop at the top of the case feeder. What this does is narrow the opening enough that a case cannot turn side ways in the shute. This makes that horrible problem go away on either case feeder.

Cocobolo, would you please describe this piece of cardboard further so my feeble mind can see what you mean? Better yet, can you post a picture of it? Thanks.

[CocoBolo]

1. The XL650 has less leverage than the LNL, but a bit shorter throw.

Hornady told me the 650 has better priming leverage then the LnL. I don't think they would lie about that.

Having owned the LnL for 5 months. I can't find much about it I like better then both my Dillons. Powder Measure included. It's a rust bucket. PITA.

I didn't say priming leverage, I said leverage and that refers to up force against the die when you pull the handle down.

How much priming leverage does the xl650 have, enought to rip the rim off the brass and push it out of the shell plate when you hit a GECO piece of 9 mm brass. On a WCC it will shove it right into that crimped primer pocket and you got yourself a flat primer before shooting it. If brute force isn't working you are just not using enough.

[Pat Miles]

Buy the 650.

Pat