The disabled shooter. Do they/we have a place in shooting

[bobert1]

I have some serious issues with my lower back. The longer I stand the more painful it becomes. I promised several RM's and MD's that I would not shoot under the influence of my Oxy & Morphine. So as long as I limit helping to setup, I start out pretty well. As the match goes on I slow way down or even must withdraw, like I had to at this years Ohio Sec. There is no way I could be given an allowance. It would depend on what stage I was on. I do stick around and help tear down as I can. The only allowances I receive are when I CRO a major.

[Canuck223]

Based on a previous topic along these lines, I think most people are like Skydiver and assume "The goal is to have fun safely" while for WTG the goal is to win.

Puts a different light on the level of accommodation!

What I find frustrating about these conversations is that your first point is often overlooked.

Rarely do I find someone eagre to exploit or exagerate an impairment with the goal of gaining a competitive advantage.

In my humble opinion, any safe and reasonable accomodation made to allow someone to get out and have fun is acceptable.

[Canuck223]

I have some serious issues with my lower back. The longer I stand the more painful it becomes. I promised several RM's and MD's that I would not shoot under the influence of my Oxy & Morphine. So as long as I limit helping to setup, I start out pretty well. As the match goes on I slow way down or even must withdraw, like I had to at this years Ohio Sec. There is no way I could be given an allowance. It would depend on what stage I was on. I do stick around and help tear down as I can. The only allowances I receive are when I CRO a major.

In your shoes, I'd be asking my doctor about the possibility of switching to fentynal transdermal patches. I perhaps have an unusual viewpoint for this sport, but on the balance of things, I'd rather be shooting beside you when your pain was well managed, than when you are straining to keep an even keel. Don't get me wrong. When pain meds are not required, I have no problem with folks skipping them. My concern is about folks who hold off, and hold off, and then hold off just a bit more, only to then have to gulp back a fist full just to get out of thier chair to walk to the door.

[Dan Hefta]

Based on a previous topic along these lines, I think most people are like Skydiver and assume "The goal is to have fun safely" while for WTG the goal is to win.

Puts a different light on the level of accommodation!

What I find frustrating about these conversations is that your first point is often overlooked.

Rarely do I find someone eagre to exploit or exagerate an impairment with the goal of gaining a competitive advantage.

In my humble opinion, any safe and reasonable accomodation made to allow someone to get out and have fun is acceptable.

+1, well said!

[muleskinner]

My opinion:

Disabled individuals should be allowed to compete as long as they are able to safely do so.

All competitors should be subject to Divisional equipment requirements.

The only exception to Divisional equipment requirements should be the case where a competitor's disability dictates use of and/or positioning of equipment that is not legal in any divison. In such instances, after the RM has ruled the equipment/positioning safe, a disability exemption should allow the competitor to shoot for score in Open division.

[West Texas Granny]

West Texas Granny WTG,

I have to get this off my chest, sorry. You seem to pop in once in a while and post along these same lines. I am truly sorry for what physical limitations you may have but it is not up to this or any sport to change the way we do business. While I think twodownzero's comments seemed a little harsh I somewhat see his point.

If you take the time to read the rules instead of always finding ways to circumvent them or tell us how silly they are you would be much happier. Or you would shoot another game.

I don't know what would happen if I ever got injured and could not compete by the rules. Oh I remember, I would have to give it up and shoot steel or bowling pins.

I generally don't like different rule enforcement for different levels of matches but at local matches I see no reason to make accomodations to shooters with limitations. We have an older gentleman as well as a not so old gentleman that can not hear the beeper at all. They have to be tapped on the shoulder to start them. I am certain their times are not accurate as it is not easy to tap and start the timer perfectly every time. But since they, like me, are near the bottom in stats, I feel just fine enabling them to shoot our matches.

When making accommodations starts giving a significant advantage then I have a problem. Such as the case of a shooter with bad vision shooting optics in Production. Or a shooter who wears mags in front of his hip bone. That is not fair to the other Production shooters.

Along the lines of what AT posted. We have a shooter who can't raise his arms overhead like reaching for a box which is occasionally required. I was ROing him and told him he had to reach higher. He turned and said, this is as good as it gets. I said fine and let him shoot. I knew he was not going to take home any prize money so it made little difference. But he is there every match giving it his best and doing his best to play within the rules.

WTG, my suggestion is to find a Division you can compete in legally, even if disadvantaged by your current equipment. Then gradually optimize your equipment to meet the Division requirements instead of trying to find ways to make the Divisions to meet YOUR needs.

I shot Production for a few years and wanted so bad to move to limited but my eyes were never going to allow me to keep in the game. My option was to shoot Open. It was not my option of choice at the time but it was my only option for the long run. So I went from top ten finishes locally in Production to next to last in Open. Does that suck? You bet! But that is how the system works.

Moving something on my belt an inch or two does not give me a competitive advantage. It actually puts us on the same level before the buzzer goes off and we start shooting. After the buzzer sounds the results are what they are. As far as the term "fair" there is a rule book to make things "fair" or their would be 33 round mags and expensive optics in SS. So get off this " fair" thing as its nothing more than a red herring.

[Sarge]

Moving something on my belt an inch or two does not give me a competitive advantage. It actually puts us on the same level before the buzzer goes off and we start shooting.

Huh? Example:

Production requires mags to be behind the hip bone. In Open I can now put them wherever I want. Trust me, it is easier and faster to reach a mag in front of your hip bone than to reach one behind it. So I disagree, an inch or two is a pretty significant advantage.

And that is not "fair" to other shooters who can't do the same thing. If a shooter can't reach back then position everything for Limited. If a shooter can't see, either get glasses or shoot Open.

Like I said, in a local match if a shooter has no legs at all and wants to shoot from a wheel chair we can make that happen. As long as it is in the name of fun and they are safe. But if they shoot from the low ready and are beating everybody in the division then something will have to give.

I hope you see my points.

[Skydiver]

Or consider how much easier a draw would be if the gun were allowed to be 3" out from the inner belt, rather than the currently allowed 2". If there were no advantage to a drop offset holster, then it would simply be a drop (with no offset) holster.

[Thomas H]

Moving something on my belt an inch or two does not give me a competitive advantage.

As people have said, this is flat out not true. Otherwise we wouldn't make a rule difference between equipment placement for different divisions.

It actually puts us on the same level before the buzzer goes off and we start shooting.

No. Everyone can reach around their bodies with different amounts of ease. No one is ever at the exact same level. However, in each division, each person at least has the same starting point. If your body type/condition is such that you cannot pull mags from behind the hip, then you should compete in a division where you can reach your equipment. That's the good thing---there are plenty in which this is possible.

I'll note that the argument that "an inch or two" is all that would occur is nonsense, because you will run into stages in which you will need ALL of your magazines (5 or so) on a particular stage. So either your initial problem is that you can't reach your farthest-back mag, whereupon moving the whole set "an inch or two" forward will give you a competitive advantage most of the time (as we only need that back mag sometimes) or you truly can't reach the front several mags---so the movement is going to be far more than "an inch or two".

So either you will have a competitive advantage most of the time---or you'll be moving your mags quite a bit. Either way, it is obvious that Production division or SingleStack isn't for you.

After the buzzer sounds the results are what they are. As far as the term "fair" there is a rule book to make things "fair" or their would be 33 round mags and expensive optics in SS. So get off this " fair" thing as its nothing more than a red herring.

Actually, you've just supported his point---we do have a rule book to make things "fair"---and you know what? That's why we have different divisions. You find an equipment rules set in which you can compete, and there you go. If you can't compete under a particular set of equipment rules---then you go with a different division. While it is certainly true that this sport is about including as many people as we can, and that at Level I matches people stretch things quite a bit to include more people--in the end, you need to obey the rules.

Here's my take on it: If a person's disability can be dealt with by that person shooting in a particular division, it is that shooter's responsibility to do so, if possible. For the case mentioned, that means shooting L-10 or Limited instead of Production or SingleStack. (Or Open, if you've got the money.) If, on the other hand, a person's disability is something that can only be fixed by special case (meaning that division equipment requirements aren't the problem, such as having NO LEGS), then it should be dealt with on a match-by-match basis.

The sport is for the shooters---but the shooters are responsible for dealing fairly with both the rules of the sport, and with each other. This isn't public school, and people don't get accommodations for every possible case---first, the shooter needs to try to find a way to shoot within the rules. If they choose to make it harder on themselves, that was their choice, wasn't it?

[The Antichrome]

Moving something on my belt an inch or two does not give me a competitive advantage.

So then moving it an inch or two from where you want it would also not give you a competitive disadvantage.