Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) After the "Start Signal" on a normal loaded and holstered gun start, a shooter puts his hand on the gun's grip, flips off the safety on their SA gun, and then draws. Is this a DQ under 10.5.11, or legal but not a recommended practice? (I searched and found the thread about cocking the hammer at "Make Ready", but all the discussion was about an unloaded gun. This question is about a loaded gun.) Reading 10.5.11, it uses the word "holstering". Does the word refer to the act of holstering the gun, or to the state of having a holstered gun? I've been told in the past, that flipping the safety off on a loaded holstered gun with a cocked external hammer is a DQ, but I never looked closely at the applicable rule until now. If "holstering" is used as a verb then it seems legal (but unwise) to flip the safety off while holstered. If "holstering" is used to describe a state, then that fits perfectly with what I've been told in the past. [What brought this question up is that somebody described a technique of cocking the hammer on a production gun while still the holster before drawing and transferring to the weak hand. I figured that if the DQ for flipping the safety off on a SA gun is 10.5.11.1, then cocking the hammer on a DA gun would be a DQ under 10.5.11.2... assuming that I was given correct information the flipping the safety off while holstered is a DQ.] Edited July 21, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I would like to think that the word "Holstering" was used purposely to show intent that the gun should be on safety (or Decocked in the CZ's case) while the gun is being inserted into the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 After the "Start Signal" on a normal loaded and holstered gun start, a shooter puts his hand on the gun's grip, flips off the safety on their SA gun, and then draws. Is this a DQ under 10.5.11, or legal but not a recommended practice? (I searched and found the thread about cocking the hammer at "Make Ready", but all the discussion was about an unloaded gun. This question is about a loaded gun.) Reading 10.5.11, it uses the word "holstering". Does the word refer to the act of holstering the gun, or to the state of having a holstered gun? I've been told in the past, that flipping the safety off on a loaded holstered gun with a cocked external hammer is a DQ, but I never looked closely at the applicable rule until now. If "holstering" is used as a verb then it seems legal (but unwise) to flip the safety off while holstered. If "holstering" is used to describe a state, then that fits perfectly with what I've been told in the past. [What brought this question up is that somebody described a technique of cocking the hammer on a production gun while still the holster before drawing and transferring to the weak hand. I figured that if the DQ for flipping the safety off on a SA gun is 10.5.11.1, then cocking the hammer on a DA gun would be a DQ under 10.5.11.2... assuming that I was given correct information the flipping the safety off while holstered is a DQ.] Easy answer. Holstering includes having the gun in the holster, it is a definte DQ. Beyond that it is just stupid un safe. 10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. 10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied. 10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) I disagree. Holstering in 10.5.11 is referring to act of putting the gun into the holster. As all have stated, the gun must have saftey applied, etc, etc. The OP is asking about after the start signal. At that point, he is in the process of "drawing". In my opinion, since the start signal has gone off, and he is allowed to draw the gun, there is nothing that says when he can and cannot take the safety off. Do I think it's unsafe and shouldn't be done...hell yes. Is it against the rules, I don't think so. If you disagree with this, then at what point should you be allowed per the rules? When trigger is exposed, when end of barrel is completely out of holster? And what rule are you quoting? ***I still don't think you should take the safety off until the gun is at least at a 45 degree angle away from your body, but I'm just trying to confirm what the rules say you can and cannot do. Edited July 21, 2011 by CZinSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Interesting question. I was rather under the impression that you were not supposed to take the safety off until the gun was clear of the holster, but I cannot see anything in writing to back that up. In fact, it would appear that after the start signal, then as long as the shooter is in the act of drawing the gun, they can take the safety off any time they want. That said, they cannot take the safety off and leave the gun in the holster and then move someplace - but that's not the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Taking a gun off safe in the holster is a dumb idea. It can go BANG. not likely, but possible. The results can be devastating. (I always wonder about the shooters that wear their gun pointing across their crotch at things that you really really DO NOT WANT TO GET SHOT! But that is a different topic. OK, so is it against the rules? No. Should it be? No. Why? Just how would you enforce it? Stop each shooter as he draws and make an inspection? We are talking about people that can draw and fire the first shot in under 0.6 seconds in some cases! Rules should be made that enhance safety and enhance the sport, but they have to be rules that can actually be enforced. Rules that are unenforceable are BAD RULES. We don't want no stinkin BAD RULES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable handgun ready conditions (see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11). IMO, under the same wording as "holstering" in 10.5.11, this implies the safety not being applied while actively placing the gun into the holster, nothing about taking the safety off while it is in the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... So you would issue a subjective DQ in spite of what seems (to me) to be in obvious opposition of the wording of the applicable rule? The rules says "holstering..." not "having a holstered..." Is there a reason for such wording? I'm not certain but I imagine there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... I always think of 10.5 as a BS rule to apply. (We don't have a FTDR. A DQ ought to be specifically covered.) However...this might the first place I'd think about applying this rule. (Which, to me, means we might need to reword the rules.) Is there any reason we need to be manipulating the fire control parts while in the holster...at all? Loaded or not? I can see the Practicality (one handed) of working mag changes in the holster (even though we don't do much of that in our game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... So you would issue a subjective DQ in spite of what seems (to me) to be in obvious opposition of the wording of the applicable rule? The rules says "holstering..." not "having a holstered..." Is there a reason for such wording? I'm not certain but I imagine there is. IMO, that is not an "obvious opposition." Speaking of subjective...I imagine that your last sentence falls into that category ? Good points, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Fair enough. If anything, what's obvious is that it's not obvious enough. Edited July 21, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No DQ. He is in the act of drawing the gun. How does the RO know when the safety is off? I mean I am standing off to the side I can't see when the TS goes off. If the gun goes off and strikes the ground within the 10 feet he goes home, other than that no foul. I'm not saying it is a good idea but i don't beleive it justifies a DQ. Also back in my early days I shot a sig 226 and used to tell the RO that I was going to thumb cock the hammer so I would get a single action first shot and was never told that would be a DQ offense. So I thik that is a legal action also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... So you would issue a subjective DQ in spite of what seems (to me) to be in obvious opposition of the wording of the applicable rule? The rules says "holstering..." not "having a holstered..." Is there a reason for such wording? I'm not certain but I imagine there is. IMO, that is not an "obvious opposition." Speaking of subjective...I imagine that your last sentence falls into that category ? Good points, though. Certainly. I'd prefer subjectivity in a discussion versus on a score card with a 10.5 written on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... Nik, We will have to disagree on this. IF the gun is Loaded & holstered AND the shooters hand is off, as it would be following LAMR or if he reholstered during the COF, you are correct, BUT if the shooter grabs his gun as he draws and flicks the safety off as he draws, then I can't see a DQ. I can see a discussion after the COF that he might want to wait a split second longer to flick the safety, but no DQ. Now you MIGHT argue that this is an example of USGH, but I can also argue that I really doubt that anyone can even see this as it occurs. Maybe on a shooter that has a 2 second draw, but on a shooter that is in the sub one-second? not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Flipping off the safety on a single action pistol while in the holster in the "act of drawing" is just plain stupid, but not a DQ. Notice I said "in the act of drawing". We will presume the start signal has been given and the COF has started as the OP stated. If the rules were to be revised, at what point in the draw process would the rule allow the safety to be off? Let's not even go there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Put me in the "no DQ, but stupid" camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Put me in the "no DQ, but stupid" camp. I hate +1's but --- +1 I don't necessarily want to see it changed either. The last thing I want to have to do is be listening for the "click" of a safety dropping while I'm trying to determine if it's still in the holster. On a .8 draw I'm going to be trying to determine if it dropped off in less that .18 seconds - sorry - I am not that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Alright, let's forget the draw. Shooter is standing there after he has "made ready" and re-holstered his gun. He flicks his safety off then back on once or twice. This should negate the whole "I don't have time to process exactly when he flicked the safety off" and get us back on the intent of the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I believe the discussion is hypothetical based on a suggestion in another thread of cocking a CZ production gun while in the holster when doing a draw to weak hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Alright, let's forget the draw. Shooter is standing there after he has "made ready" and re-holstered his gun. He flicks his safety off then back on once or twice. This should negate the whole "I don't have time to process exactly when he flicked the safety off" and get us back on the intent of the topic. I disagree that we were off the topic. (respectfully, of course). Skydiver was pretty specific about the sequence of events. This was after the start signal, and part of the motion to draw. The words there are holstering. There is no where in the rules that I have seen that allows us to determine when the safety should come off in the process of the draw - or unholstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Alright, let's forget the draw. Shooter is standing there after he has "made ready" and re-holstered his gun. He flicks his safety off then back on once or twice. This should negate the whole "I don't have time to process exactly when he flicked the safety off" and get us back on the intent of the topic. I disagree that we were off the topic. (respectfully, of course). Skydiver was pretty specific about the sequence of events. This was after the start signal, and part of the motion to draw. The words there are holstering. There is no where in the rules that I have seen that allows us to determine when the safety should come off in the process of the draw - or unholstering. That's true. I guess it's all in the semantics. Does the shooter cock (or disengage safety) then draw or cock while drawing? Furthermore, does that even matter? I don't think so, based on my interpretation of the rule. Edited July 21, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Just curious, where in the rule book does it say that if his hand comes off that it is a DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 I believe the discussion is hypothetical based on a suggestion in another thread of cocking a CZ production gun while in the holster when doing a draw to weak hand. Yes, it was that thread that actually made me go look closely at the rule. Also partly from experience. A couple of years ago, I was RO'ing the classifier CM 99-02 Night Moves. A young left handed lady was shooting a single stack gun in a SERPA holster. She elected to shoot all strings sitting down fully. Anyway, on one of her strings, there was a very loud click after the buzzer and people were claiming that she should have been DQ'ed for turning of her safety while in the holster. I didn't disqualify her because I was watching the gun and the safety was on all the way until she got on target. (Being left handed, she had ambi safeties.) The loud click was from the SERPA lock. My question was specifically about the draw and flipping off the safety, and people seem to agree that it's legal (but not necessarily wise). I'm assuming that would then apply to also cocking the hammer after the start signal and then drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now