Transitions

[EricW]

What do you GM's see as you're making a transition from target to target? Does you gun actually stop or do you just slow it down on the way through to make the shot?

[Jake Di Vita]

(Disclaimer). I'm no GM.

It depends on the distance for me. If I'm shooting at targets fairly close, the gun will never stop moving. Obviously if you're shooting at mini-poppers at 20 yards, you're going to need to let the gun settle before you make the shot.

I think the answer to the stop or moving question can be determined by how fast your vision is and the difficulty of the shot.

[mcoliver]

I swear I read TGO say something about this very topic in his site. I'm trying to dig it up...

[short_round]

I remember the bounce, which I later realized could be the result of too much tension in the grip/arms, and not enough attention in vision. (Should be seeing the sight slide back down in the notch and shooting as soon as it gets there.)

be

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and the biggest thing that comes to mind is from an "unrelated" post from a "sight bouncing" question. Because you still get the same basic sight behaviour, it goes up and goes down. However, in a transition you are driving down and across rather than a 2nd shot where you are just driving down.

The thing that Brian said that I am really trying to understand is "shooting as soon as it gets there." Which makes me think that you don't stop.

[Disclaimer] I'm no GM either [/Disclaimer]

[Steve Anderson]

the answer is: sometimes.

THE key to shooting good transitions is to get your eyes to the next target as soon as you call the last shot of the previous target.

Distance, difficulty, and vision will determine whether the gun stops completely.

You do indeed shoot as soon as it gets there.

On the elprez, the gun pauses as the two shots are fired, but looks to bee sweeping because it happens so quickly.

It pauses horizontally, but never really stops vertically. The gun fires as the sight determines an A-hit will result.

Lotsa dry fire will reveal this in better detail.

Shooting a dot or a fiber optic front sight will help you see the recoil arc in better detail, which will help you in this "just in time" shooting.

SA

[benos]

What do you GM's see as you're making a transition from target to target? Does you gun actually stop or do you just slow it down on the way through to make the shot?

Thinking in terms stopping, slow or fast may not be the best approach to this question.

The totality of what you're either seeing or not seeing determines what your gun does.

And of course this varies with each target and each target's distance.

Once you really know what that means, then it can help to break shots into two categories: Moving and Stopped shots. Over the years I've found that helped me to become more consistent on longer or harder shots in a match. Since we always tend to rush, in the excitement of competition we tend not to hesitate long enough to see what we should on difficult shots. So when looking over a stage, I'd pick out the targets that I knew from experience might be "challenging." Then I'd classify those targets as "stopped-shot targets." Which meant I WOULD SEE a still, stopped sight picture before I cranked away at the trigger, at the least.

[mcoliver]

So when looking over a stage, I'd pick out the targets that I knew from experience might be "challenging." Then I'd classify those targets as "stopped-shot targets." Which meant I WOULD SEE a still, stopped sight picture before I cranked away at the trigger, at the least.

Holy cow BE! Before your post, my stage breakdown only got me as far as positioning for the best target engagement and areas for reloads... You definitely should get going on that second book or video.

I also managed to dig up TGO's answer but it's about hard and easy targets (dang memory's starting to get foggy). But it could answer the question about stopped shots. Yuo can read about it HERE.

Btw, is it polite to copy and paste some of what he said in his site and post it here in this forum?

[Jasonub]

[quote name=

Btw' date=' is it polite to copy and paste some of what he said in his site and post it here in this forum? [/quote]

nope not polite but we wont complain since it is helping us

[TDean]

Eric, I never paid attention to it ....but even at hoser distances, I'm sure I stop the gun.

You've got me airgunning targets on the wall now!

Ya....it seems I stop for as long as it takes for the 2nd shot to break and NOT a millisecond longer.

Where are your eyes as the 2nd shot breaks on T2 as you're beginning your transition to T3? I think I'm noticing that my eyes are STILL on T2. I could see that if someone were to look-off T2 before the 2nd shot broke it might start the gun moving too early resulting in a C/D hit.

With your eyes closed, imagine engaging 3 targets that are shoulder to shoulder at 5 yds. Does the gun stop? Mine does. (then again I may be all screwed up)

Why do you think transitions are your weak link?

What are your symptoms.... What's happening?

[EricW]

Where are your eyes as the 2nd shot breaks on T2 as you're beginning your transition to T3?

Tom, I really haven't a clue right now. I'll check on that the next dryfire session.

Why do you think transitions are your weak link?

What are your symptoms.... What's happening?

I'm REALLY bad at transitions. You could see it from 20 feet away how the gun isn't moving smoothly, how I'm triggering the shots at C-zone as I'm sweeping across...I overshoot the target...I undershoot....it's just a mess really. I'm basically restarting from ground zero as far as shooting technique. It all feels new and strange. (I have this sensation while dryfiring now like I was staring at the same word too long and pretty soon it will start sounding foreign, then you feel like you don't know how to even spell it anymore.) I used to stop hard on every target, but now I don't see how I can do that and really hit the times I need to to be competitive on the closer targets. It's just too herky jerky.

On steel, I'm slowly learning to "use the force" and am triggering the shot on what is almost a subconcious sight picture (it's not really, but my seeing is still slow). It works, but I'm not sure it's "right" or not.

The one thing that's really revealing all this is spring time. I can finally "see" again. I know this will sound stupid, but I get about 10X the visual input in bright sunlight as I do indoors or under deep cloud cover. The targets and the sights are finally crisp again with the reappearance of sunshine. The indoor range is OK for accuracy practice, but the visual input is so low it's really tough to know where you're at.

Things are just really weird right now. Three years ago I would have told you that I knew how to hit a target. Now I realize that I've never really known anything at all.

Watching my front sight wobble all the hell over the place is pretty humbling lately.

[Nik Habicht]

Eric,

If you've got access to a plate rack, shoot the crap out of it. I think it can do wonders on teaching you about transitions. The other idea would be to set out six or more targets and just shoot one round transition drills in both directions at various distances. Tape after each run and just see what pops up in your vision...

[TDean]

Eric, I wonder if a prescription of a couple weeks off could fix the issue.

It sounds like you know what the problem is and how to fix it.

This seems like a TIMING issue. Are you getting sloppy with the dryfiring routine (simulating too fast) and it's transferred to your live-fire?

Are you shooting a new gun, different weight trigger?

Maybe reciting the words “visual patience” before the start signal could put you back in the groove.

[Flexmoney]

Eric,

Without some posted transition times I'm not sure what you are really having trouble with.

I see two, maybe three, issues that are likely talking points:

1. transitioning to a target

2. whether to stop on that target or sweep thru

3. the "knowing"...which is part of leaving a target (and could fall under starting the transition)

Since you posted that you are starting from scratch...I'll will too.

(3.) I am going to start on talking point three, the knowing.

Forget using "the force". I think the closest we can come to the force (in our reality) is to be as completely aware as we can be. Being aware means much more than vision. We get all kinds of input from our senses. I am sure there are many we block out that, perhaps, we shouldn't.

Anyway...I think we can boil the shooting down to feel and vision. I don't think we should ever shut either out. Of the two, vision seems far more reliable. We can develop the feel...through repetition, memory, rote, coordination, etc... But, the feel can easily be thrown off by various distractors. Tension is a huge distractor, and it varys from moment to moment...day to day.

While we can progress to shoot by feel, I think we need to certainly confirm by vision. Vision seems less likely to lie to us. With vision...we know. Knowing is faster...there is no doubt*.

All that to say this...calling the (previous) shot is important to a fast trasition to the next shot.

(1.) Transitioning to the next target.

Here is where you are likely loosing the time. From your posts, it sounds like you are using a type 4 focus. You are keeping your vision on the front sight as you swing to the next target. That would explain your over/under swinging to the target. You simply haven't located the target, because you aren't looking for it...you are looking at the front sight.

Locating the target is fundamental. We often think we know where a target is, because it is right out there in front of us. We've seen it on the stage diagram, we've seen it during the walk-thru, we've watched other shooter shoot it, we've even pasted it half a dozen times. But, when it comes time to shoot it...we need to really figure out what it means to located it.

Part of locating it is to define what the target is. If you define the target as a "brown" then that is all you can ever hope to hit. Define the target as narrowly as feasible...the "A" in the A-zone...the center of the plate...whatever it takes to ensure the hit.

And, most important, once you have defined what the target is...located that target with your eyes as soon as possible. Your eyes should find the "target" well before you can get the gun there. SNAP those eyes to the well defined target. Your eyes will/should be ahead of the gun (unless it is just an 18 inch "nudge the muzzle" type of transition).

Snap the eyes...the gun will follow. It will come right onto target...if you let it.

(2.) Sweep or stop?

This one is easy. It goes back to knowing. It goes back to the ability to call the shoot with certainty.

For me, with an iron sighted gun, coming onto a target...my vision is at the target. As my gun gets there, my vision pulls back to the front sight...so that I can call the shot with certainty. The time it takes my vision to pull back, that is enough time to allow the gun to "stop" on the target. Executed correctly, the gun stops, the call is certain.

With a red dot, I have the same idea. For instance, on a plate, I will find the center of the plate (the defined target), but with a red dot, my vision doesn't have to come back to the gun. I have the same idea**...to stop the gun in the middle of the plate...but, I find that I often end up shooting before the dot gets to the center. I'll see the dot come onto the edge of the plate...and I will know it will hit. I may, or may not, get to a solid pause in the middle of the plate. My vision will tell me if I can start the next transition or not.

I sometimes will do the same with iron sights. If the shot is close, my vision will break the shot as I come in on the plate.

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A quick note on plate racks and narrow transitons on paper (El Prez, Speed-E, etc.)...

Those transitions can be so small that all you are really doing is nudging the gun over a few degrees. Often, you can get by with a Type 4 focus on those. Be careful using them as a training tool. Try to spread the transitions out. Get lots of lateral gun swing. And, don't forget some vertical swing as well.

Now...if I can just practice what I preach. It all comes down to execution.

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* Maybe the removal of doubt is what we really need. And, perhaps we doubt our vision the least of all. We trust it more than the other senses.

** I should note that the "idea" of stopping the gun is a bit dogmatic. Having that thought means you go into a stage with a pre-concieved notion of how it should be shot. That can be a very bad thing. It stiffles creativity. I use it here to convey a thought. But, the awareness needs to be the deciding factor...don't decide what to do before the stage even starts.

[Steve Anderson]

I learned something pretty cool about this topic today, after thinking about it on the way to the range. i have a pretty cool video to show too.

I'll post more tonite when the video is ready.

SA

[EricW]

Eric, I wonder if a prescription of a couple weeks off could fix the issue.

It sounds like you know what the problem is and how to fix it.

This seems like a TIMING issue. Are you getting sloppy with the dryfiring routine (simulating too fast) and it's transferred to your live-fire?

Are you shooting a new gun, different weight trigger?

Maybe reciting the words “visual patience” before the start signal could put you back in the groove.

Later, I'll probably take some time off, but I really think this is because I'm not spending *nearly* enough time on transitions and never have. Steve's dryfire routine is really revealing about one's true skill level.

The gun is lightweight 5" I got a few months ago but haven't spent nearly enough time practicing with. And since I had to send my holster to Safariland to get fixed - transitions will be about all I can practice for the next few weeks. Some of the overdriving issue is certainly due to having less mass to push around. There's obviously a reason new shooters gravitate to the slab-sides and GM's gravitate toward the lightweights.

Visual patience is definitely part of the issue. Another part is that my eyes don't make focus transitions quickly. I really speeded up my draw index by looking at the ground in front of me instead of the target. It cuts several tenths off by not having to refocus from 30 feet back to 2 feet.

I shall make "patience" my new mantra. If only it were one of my virtues

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Flex,

Holy crap. I'm gonna have to read that post 2 or 3 more times here. I do think you've hit on the vision issue. I'm definitely hunting for the next target. I've got to remember that it's just like riding a motorcycle: look where you want to go and you will go there.

[steve223]

Great Post Flex

[vincent]

I'm doing some transition work myself and so far the biggest improvements in my times are coming from getting my eyes/head to the next desired "bullet impact region" quickly. Another time saver is to start the transition to the next target when the front sight lifts, not when it comes back down.

[benos]

Yes, that was an awesome post Flex.

A couple more thoughts...

If you notice your sights landing somewhere other than the A zone, you did not see the A zone prior to your gun's arrival.

If you notice your gun moved herky-jerkyily toward the next target, you do not know precisely where the previous shot went, and because of that indecision, you will not decisively find the A zone of the next target.

Find the target, call the shot, and repeat. Always do the same thing.

be

[EricW]

If you notice your sights landing somewhere other than the A zone, you did not see the A zone prior to your gun's arrival.

Man, now there's what I call the Nugget Du Jour! You ought to write a book or something....

I'm going to compile this thread and pin on the wall. Thanks everyone! This definitely helped!

[Jon Merricks]

EricW, Keep in mind this is coming from a lowly B class shooter. My transitions has made the biggest improvemnt over the past couple of weeks. Example on the El Prez type distance between targets I have cut .15 to .20 off. What I see when I am working the way I should is first a completion of the shot (a sight picture, a lift and return) eyes shift, gun follows/trigger prep. Then start all over again. The main part of my time reduction is the trigger prep. If I do not prep the trigger I will add .10 to .15 to my time. So for me the trigger prep was the biggest thing. My el prez trans are from .28 to .32 when I do what I need to do. I'm sure that's no biggy to most but I was in the high .40's to low .50's a month ago. My trans times are about the same from 10 to 15 yards.

[Sac Law Man]

Eric W,

I have ben practicing transitions a lot lately..What has really worked for me has been to make sure that my upper body stays consistant in relation to the gun, I try to make sure that I do NOT move my arms to the next target, but roatate at the waist. My good friend Bruce Gray and I were practicing last week, he said I was moving the gun to the next taregt with my arms first. He suggested more flex in the knees, shoot target A look to target B, rotate at the waist to B and fire when the sights are on the target,,good luck

[EricW]

EricW, Keep in mind this is coming from a lowly B class shooter.

Dude, if only I had such high aspirations. My scores when I stopped, pretty much were at a high B / low A pace. Now, I'm right back in the cellar again. I'm *literally* starting over.

[lukipsc]

What do you GM's see as you're making a transition from target to target?  Does you gun actually stop or do you just slow it down on the way through to make the shot?

So look and find "Tip" on http://www.doublealpha.biz author is S. Kirsch