USPSA 3 Gun Nationals

[TMC]

AMEN Bruce!

Show up and shoot. Whatever the rules as long as they applied evenly to everyone there's no problem.

[George]

Back when I first started, the rule book was a little thinner than what it is now. There weren't as many problems back then either. Much like many of the other 3-gun match rules. Walk up to the stage .... listen to the walk thru.... and do what it says. You should get 'dinged' with a penalty if you don't.. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

Bingo! What happened to that anyway? And why can't we stop worrying about what the rules will be, and just go there and shoot it knowing it will be fine?

The RM3G last year was about the best model for 3gun I have seen. No stage problems, no rule problems, no scoring problems, no schedule problems, no problems whatsoever (except for all the shotgun and brain function problems at my end. I walked past a lot of targets, see my title, it's from that match, I said that an awful lot there!). I also experienced the most competent, low key, friendly and helpful RO staff I have ever come across.

I'm going to the US3G, and plan on having a blast no matter what 6.1.3 says. I'm also planning on the JP3G too. They both look to be "the" 3gun matches for the year.

--

Regards,

Edited May 15, 2004 by George

[uscbigdawg]

Geoff,

We missed you at SMM3G buddy. Killer match! I'm going to try and make the RM3G, as from what JP and Kurt have said, it's going to be awesome!!!

Rich

[wgnoyes]

Multi-gun matches are illegal under the current, 14th Edition USPSA Rule Book.  See 6.1.3 and 6.1.4.

Troy

never mind.... reading again, he said the same thing I did.

[wgnoyes]

Well I just can't help but stir the pot a bit here. ( I know....whats new??) 5 of the 6 REALY big 3-gun matches in the U.S. NEVER even use USPSA rules!!! ...

Well, I can't speak for REALLY big 3-gun matches, but the just-concluded USPSA Area 6 3-Gun Championship was a by-god 3-gun "tournament" that complied fully with the 14th edition US rulebook. 12 stages across 3 matches, and 103 competitors appeared to have a good time.

[wgnoyes]

...6.1.3 Match: An IPSC shooting competition consisting of a minimum of one stage.  The total sum of individual stage results shall be accumulated to declare a match winner.  A match shall include only one type of firearm (e.g. handgun or shotgun etc.)

6.1.4 Tournament: An IPSC shooting competition consisting of two or more firearm specific matches...

...  But I don't see where there is a multi-gun STAGE prohibition.

A tournament is defined in 6.1.4 specifically as being made up of two or more "matches".

A match is defined in 6.1.3 as including only one type of firearm.

Therefore, there can be no multi-gun stages in a USPSA approved or higher tournament as the component matches are disallowed by 6.1.3 from having them.

[BDH]

FYI, just 'cause it's June, doesn't mean it's going to be warm in Reno.

Rich, any guidance on a temperature range would be appreciated. I suppose I can look up Reno, but not quite sure how much to subtract off of the Reno min/max, to allow for the elevation. I was just planning on shorts, figuring it would be 120 degrees every day, but don't want to under-estimate the weather there.....

[uscbigdawg]

BDH,

Shorts will probably do the trick for 90%. However, it is Reno and the weather can change drastically in an hour. So, just pack a wind breaker and maybe some waterproof pants (liking jogging stuff). Too, a good vest or jacket would be good, just in case.

Rich

[George]

Hi BDH,

The Reno area can be quite variable in it's weather. Plan on temps ranging from the 40's to low 50's early in the morning and in the evening, to the high 70's in the day. It can get into the low 80's in the day, but don't count on it and it can get down into the low 50's too if a thunderstorm moves in which happens all the time. In fact there is a standing joke about the daily thundershowers scheduled for 3pm and that's no joke

Basically, bring shorts & t-shirts, long pants & a sweater, some sunscreen & some rain gear.

Here is a forecast for the next couple days and it is probably a good indicator of what it will be like there 30 days from now.

-----------------

GREATER RENO-CARSON CITY-MINDEN AREA-

INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...GARDNERVILLE...MINDEN...SPARKS...VERDI

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE RENO NV

852 AM PDT MON MAY 24 2004

TODAY...PARTLY CLOUDY WITH ISOLATED SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS IN THE AFTERNOON. HIGHS 65 TO 75. LIGHT WINDS BECOMING NORTHEAST UP TO 10 MPH IN THE AFTERNOON.

TONIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY WITH ISOLATED SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS IN THE EVENING. LOWS 34 TO 44. NORTHEAST WINDS 10 TO 15 MPH IN THE EVENING BECOMING LIGHT.

TUESDAY...PARTLY CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS IN THE AFTERNOON. HIGHS 65 TO 75. NORTHEAST WINDS 10 TO 15 MPH.

TUESDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS IN THE EVENING. LOWS 35 TO 45. NORTHEAST WINDS UP TO 10 MPH.

WEDNESDAY...PARTLY CLOUDY WITH A SLIGHT CHANCE OF THUNDERSTORMS IN THE AFTERNOON. HIGHS 73 TO 83. NORTH WINDS AROUND 10 MPH.

---------------------

--

Regards,

[kurtm]

WGNOYES:

Did you guys have 250 shooters plus a waiting list of 32 to get in?? That is what I mean when I say a "REALY BIG" 3-gun match. By the way, I shot a realy great rifle match, and pistol match, and shotgun match down in Mississippi this last weekend, and it was a lot of fun. The R.O. were great, the people shooting were great, and it was REALY FUN!! BUT, no offence Sam, it was NO 3-gun match. It was 3 seperate matches melded at the end to achieve a 3 seperate match final.

I sense from your reply that you either don't believe that there realy are "BIG" 3-gunmatches out side of USPSA, or non USPSA matches are just something less than the august USPSA and something to be looked down upon from on high. I have gone back throught the posts in this forum and find very few "boy those Nationals were just a blast" type statements, and yet those are the words used to describe SMM3-G, RM3-G, NAT, and MGM3-G, every single time, and time again. You may not like it but there it is! Guys like Sam Keen make me want to stay in USPSA, and yet a plethora of guys make me just want to throw in the towel after just one short year of "membership"; and you want the sport to grow? I know I am just a lowly little "U" shooter, but it seems to me that those are the people you would want to retain. KURTM

[chp5]

I sense from your reply that you either don't believe that there realy are "BIG" 3-gunmatches out side of USPSA, or non USPSA matches are just something less than the august USPSA and something to be looked down upon from on high.

Kurt,

I think you’re reading into Bill’s (wnoyes) post. I’ll let Bill speak for himself, but I read his post as simply an interpretation of the USPSA rules and not as a statement that USPSA 3 gun matches are great and non-USPSA 3 gun matches are not.

Non-USPSA 3 gun matches are clearly on the forefront of the sport.

BTW – Bill and his wife Cindy run a weekly USPSA match, a monthly USPSA match, many of the larger matches in this neck-of-the-woods -- and frequently volunteer for other matches that they don’t run. I respect their efforts and don't think Bill is slamming non-USPSA matches.

Cy

[mactiger]

By the way, I shot a realy great rifle match, and pistol match, and shotgun match down in Mississippi this last weekend, and it was a lot of fun. <snip> BUT, no offence Sam, it was NO 3-gun match. It was 3 seperate matches melded at the end to achieve a 3 seperate match final.

<snip> ...find very few "boy those Nationals were just a blast" type statements, and yet those are the words used to describe SMM3-G, RM3-G, NAT, and MGM3-G, every single time, and time again. You may not like it but there it is! Guys like Sam Keen make me want to stay in USPSA, and yet a plethora of guys make me just want to throw in the towel after just one short year of "membership"; and you want the sport to grow? I know I am just a lowly little "U" shooter, but it seems to me that those are the people you would want to retain. KURTM

I'll say right off the bat that USPSA hasn't kept up with what most 3 Gun shooters want to see in a match--the simple answer is: because the rules wouldn't allow it. The majority of posts in this thread point out some of the problems in the USPSA rules that prevent keeping the customers happy. I certainly don't want it to turn into a pissing contest between USPSA 3 Gun and other organizations.

I think the SMM3G, MGM, and all the others have a good thing going, especially judged by the number of entrants and the comments I've seen here. They are different games, though. Now, USPSA has developed a set of multi-gun rules that will allow combined firearms matches like most people seem to want. They aren't perfect, but it's a start. This is where you come in: provide some feedback and examples of what works and what doesn't.

One other area of confusion is the terminology difference between USPSA/IPSC and the other organizations: Generally, a 3 Gun match would be one where you used all 3 guns, all the time (OK, with some variations, but you get the drift). A 3 Gun Tournament, what Mr. Noyes and Mr. Keen basically ran, (and what USPSA has done in the past, mostly) uses one gun only, in 3 separate matches. Completely different animals, but these terms are part of the confusion and the reason why USPSA 3 Gun was/is different. I think we'll see quite a bit of blurring of the lines with the advent of the new, multigun rules.

I really don't know which came first, USPSA or the others. I'd guess USPSA, since the rules I read from the others reference USPSA safety rules. USPSA just hasn't kept up. That needs to change, and I think we're heading in the right direction. We can keep heading in the right direction by doing two things: the organization needs to listen to the customer, even the lowly little "U" shooters (especially when they have some experience with the other long gun matches), and the customers need to tell USPSA what they want.

Troy McManus

[ccur]

Actually, I think the Soldier Of Fortune 3-Gun match was the first one...That was a really good match, it's too bad its gone (Hey KM and company, why don't you resurrect it?)

Cheryl

[mactiger]

I think you are correct, Cheryl.

I know that it was well attended and very, er, different, from what USPSA was doing.

Troy

[kurtm]

Cheryl:

We have, just without the B.B circus show . Rocky Mountain 3-gun is just that replacement, and don't be supprized to see the two Mikes show up at our match either as competitors or in some other capacity! Now if we can only get Johny and Cathy to come see the show it would be like old home week!

Troy:

I agree that they are different match venues! I don't doubt that Mr. Noyes is a great guy! It is the the steadfast adhereance to the "rule book" that causes the problem. Since it isn't in the rule book, it can't be done!! EVER! EVER! EVER! There seems to be a LARGE contingent in USPSA that think nothing should ever change. The customer says lets try this, it sounds fun! Instead of triing it, the immediate reply is " it isn't in the rules, NO WAY!

YES you need rules so the match is fair to everyone, on this we all agree! But from the local level to the top ( I don't know what these guys are called) NOONE wants to even try to change (there are a few exceptions, like the boys in San Angelo, and Sam Keen). The other venues ( granted they aren't as big ) seem to listen to the shooter and change to what they want at a fairly fast pace. A great example is 3-gun, USPSA has dabbled in it as a venue since 93 or so. Since 95 or so people have been telling the governing body that they want multi gun. Now, almost 10 years latter, they are going to try it out. The governing body, back then, looked at it and said since hardly anyone was comming to the Nationals we would be changing for "just a few people". From the shooter side, we were saying since you won't change we are going to go to these othere matches instead and didn't go to the Nationals. The other big matches were filling to the brim and then some, mean while 60-70 shooters would trundle out to the Nationals. I hope you can understand some of My frustration, when for the first time in almost 10 years, the Nationals will be what we all have been asking for, and then, from local to area, to higher directors and such, jump up and say IT CAN'T BE!!!!!! IT ISN'T IN THE RULES, THER FOR IT CAN'T BE DONE!!!!!!!!

I am not "just whinning" I have put my money where my exceptionally large mouth is, and we (3 other guys and I) started putting on the RM3-G, one of "those" other matches. I know what it takes to put on a big match, and My hat is off to Mr. Noyes for stepping up to do it, but it is time to give the customer what they want, even if it means out running the rules for just a little bit. Change is never easy, but if USPSA wants 3-gun to grow, it needs to change. If it doesn't want to change, fine also, leave the venue, just don't tease KURTM

[George]

Exactly! Kurt, you have summed it up very nicely. Hear, Hear amigo.

Re-statement of theme is a valid concept, but "Progression" is the order of change.

Let me tell my 3 gun story

I started 3 gunnin' back in 1989 at the Oakdale Wiley Coyote matches held at the Oslum family ranch (Ed & Leanne). These were pretty loose affairs run approximately by USPSA rules but were all single gun stages and no range lawyerin' allowed. Our local club (Richmond Hotshots) was running a couple of 3 guns a year and we were doing combo stages way back then along with single long gun sidematches after our monthly pistol matches.

I got out of shooting in 92 and did little but go to some of our local specialty matches (long gun and 3 gun) occasionally during my hiatus. I came back to shooting in 2001 and went to the USPSA 3 gun nats in Vegas to see what USPSA had done with 3 gun while I was away. I was a little non-plussed when I realized it was just a big pistol match and had very little long distance shooting for rifle and was very boring after all was said and done. Unlike the single gun matches in Oakdale a decade earlier, USPSA had managed to suck all of the fun out of it comparatively. I went to the Area1 3gun in 2002 (straight up USPSA 3 gun, but much better stage designs than the Vegas US3G stages) and returned to the US3G in 2002, but found it very similar to the year before but with just a taste of combo shooting thrown in, still not the cat's meow.

I then started looking around for something a little more satisfying and discovered the MGM IronMan and set off to Idaho with a new JP rifle and lots of ammo. Man, what a difference. The stages were very carnival like, but they were all multi-gun and most were all 3. I liked it much better and went back the following year but declined to do the US3G because of the travel hassles and the lack of allure that single gun matches now had. Instead I went to the RM3G in Raton and discovered what a large 3 gun match should really be like (Kudo's to the Millers, Blaine and everyone else behind that match)

A few months later I heard from some friends that I had made at the Area 1 3 gun in 2003 that a monthly 3 gun match was being held at the Washoe range in Reno where the 2004 US3G was going to be held. I started going up to these monthly matches and found some of the best combo stage shooting at a club match I have ever experienced. It was there that I heard from Monte Leveaux (2004 US3G MD) about the 2004 US3G being an all combo stage match just like 3 gunnin' oughta' be. I realized that his vision was the correct one for the future of 3gun in USPSA and also realized the shjtstorm it was gonna cause.

I asked Monte how he was going to handle the conflicts that would arise and he just smiled. it was right then and there that I saw this was the guy we needed running the 2004 US3G.

I just have one more thing to say about the 2004 US3G, it is going to seriously rock folks. Don't miss it (or the JP3G in August)

Go Monte!

See you all there.

--

Regards,

Geoffrey A Linder

TY-11141

[uscbigdawg]

Amen brother!

Rich

P.S. Geoff. Are you going to Sac this weekend and Reno next weekend?

[mactiger]

Troy:

I agree that they are different match venues! I don't doubt that Mr. Noyes is a great guy! It is the the steadfast adhereance to the "rule book" that causes the problem. Since it isn't in the rule book, it can't be done!! EVER! EVER! EVER! There seems to be a LARGE contingent in USPSA that think nothing should ever change. The customer says lets try this, it sounds fun! Instead of triing it, the immediate reply is " it isn't in the rules, NO WAY!

YES you need rules so the match is fair to everyone, on this we all agree! But from the local level to the top ( I don't know what these guys are called) NOONE wants to even try to change (there are a few exceptions, like the boys in San Angelo, and Sam Keen). The other venues ( granted they aren't as big ) seem to listen to the shooter and change to what they want at a fairly fast pace. A great example is 3-gun, USPSA has dabbled in it as a venue since 93 or so. Since 95 or so people have been telling the governing body that they want multi gun. Now, almost 10 years latter, they are going to try it out. The governing body, back then, looked at it and said since hardly anyone was comming to the Nationals we would be changing for "just a few people". From the shooter side, we were saying since you won't change we are going to go to these othere matches instead and didn't go to the Nationals. The other big matches were filling to the brim and then some, mean while 60-70 shooters would trundle out to the Nationals. I hope you can understand some of My frustration, when for the first time in almost 10 years, the Nationals will be what we all have been asking for, and then, from local to area, to higher directors and such, jump up and say IT CAN'T BE!!!!!! IT ISN'T IN THE RULES, THER FOR IT CAN'T BE DONE!!!!!!!!

I am not "just whinning" I have put my money where my exceptionally large mouth is, and we (3 other guys and I) started putting on the RM3-G, one of "those" other matches. I know what it takes to put on a big match, and My hat is off to Mr. Noyes for stepping up to do it, but it is time to give the customer what they want, even if it means out running the rules for just a little bit. Change is never easy, but if USPSA wants 3-gun to grow, it needs to change. If it doesn't want to change, fine also, leave the venue, just don't tease KURTM

Kurt, Rich, George, et al:

I believe that we are on the same page when we say that USPSA needs to change. However, comparing that process to RM3G or JP3G with regards to how those changes are made is like comparing apples to oranges. Most, if not all, of the other 3 gun associations out there are self-contained entities and therefore can swiftly adapt to meet customer demand. In other words, they can pretty much change the rules on the fly, as needed. (That's not a bad thing--all of them seem to do a good job with it.) But, Kurt, your rules are published prior to the start of your match, right? Do you just change them in the middle of the match if you find something's not working?

USPSA, because it is part of a larger organization, IPSC, and because of its bylaws, cannot do it that way. Rules changes are a process, not a snap decision. Communication with your elected representative is key to getting your desires as a USPSA customer accomodated. NO SINGLE PERSON within the organization has the authority to either change or ignore the rules. USPSA clubs and USPSA members agree to abide by the rules in order to be part of the organization. I realize some of you don't like the amount of rules we have, but the fact is that they are there and that's what we live with. Note that those rules have grown over a considerable amount of time. I'll be interested to see if any of the other organizations rules grow as well, especially since they've essentially "benchmarked" USPSA safety rules to begin with. (BTW, when the new rules are effective, and I hope to hell that's soon, those rules will have grown and changed, too.)

I merely pointed out that the proposed multi-gun format of this years 3 Gun Nationals was against the current rules. That's an indisputable fact. The challenge for the board was to come up with rules that would allow the match to happen as planned. It seems that they have done so. I did not intend to imply that Monte Leveaux was in any way at fault for this. In fact, he's probably been put under the gun more than anyone else involved with this match. (I've been there several times, so I know of which I speak.) I'm quite sure that the stages will be fun, and since they seem to be catering to the customer, I really hope that the match will be a success.

I also never said that things shouldn't change. In fact, I've stated all along that I believe they should, and that they needed to, in order for this year's match to work. You can't just "try it", though, and remain within the USPSA realm--that's the point. It is especially important to remember that in the context of a match billed as the USPSA 3 Gun National Championships. My point: things need to change, but they have to change in the right way.

Now, it seems that the board has gotten the job done, and there is a provisional set of rules out there for anyone interested to work with: beat them up, talk them around, give them a try, and then let your AD know what works and what doesn't. I think the days of the board saying that just a few competitors can't effect a change are over.

George, FYI, Monte is not the guy who came up with the multi gun concept for the match, AFAIK. Michael Voigt proposed it, although at the time there were no rules to support it--it was illegal, in fact. I think the announcement was premature, given all the scrambling around that the board has had to do to come up with a set of rules to make it legal. Better timing would have probably prevented a lot of this controversy. As for boring stages at Nationals--another pet peeve of mine--for the last few years, USPSA has solicited stages for Nationals. We got quite a few last year, and that was good, but not a huge number. Design a stage and send it in, even if nobody asked you for it. I guarantee that somebody will take a look at it, and if it's usable, it will be used, and you'll get credit for it. Having drawn a ton of them myself, all of mine tend to look alike anymore (at least to me). The people who put on Nationals are always happy to have some fresh ideas.

Bottom line: My hat is off to the San Angelo boys, and Sam Keen, and Bill Noyes, and to you too, Kurt, for stepping up to the plate. If you want USPSA to succeed in its efforts to change, then make suggestions where they count: to the board. With enough good help, things will improve within the sport.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Troy

[George]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

And it's a darned good one too!

You are right about process but do you know what happens when I am working on various productions and I tell a client that what he wants doesn't fit the process I believe has to be followed with the expensive stuff he is paying good money to rent from us? Bam, no client next time and the stuff doesn't make it's monthly payment the following year.

The customer runs the process.

The analogy here is that the shooter tells us what he wants, and if we provide it they will probably come, in droves even, if it's a good deal from their perspective. Customer perception is a very big thing, maybe even everything.

Our clients keep coming back because we don't say No! They also do not remember you for the thousand great things you have done for them, only for the last bad thing you have done.

If Mr Voigt is driving the multi-gun format, then it's another idea whose time has come. After this years rule bending is done, maybe we can all apply the knowledge we will gain in 30 days to a set of compliances that fit well enough to give the shooter (customer) what he wants while still paying the required homage to proper adherence.

The private matches may be able to stop on a dime (and give you nine cents change), but USPSA can certainly find a way to make simple decisions quickly. It's not a complete change of position as much as it is a slight shift of weight that is needed here.

I will ask the question that hasn't really been framed. Exactly why is there a rule against multiple gun stages? It would seem to me that this is in direct opposition to the concept of freestyle that we like to pay homage to. If a COF can be solved with more than one gun, why can't the MD allow it in the interest of promoting true freestyle competition. It almost seems a form of denial in some sense.

--

Regards,

Edited May 26, 2004 by George

[kimel]

Exactly why is there a rule against multiple gun stages? It would seem to me that this is in direct opposition to the concept of freestyle that we like to pay homage to.

I will hazard a guess....that rule was probably intended to prevent multiple pistols being used with no thought about the implications this would have to 3-Gun...which probably didn't appear on the radar when that rule was written. I don't have a huge collection of rule books but I would bet that wasn't a new rule in the Red book.

I am really hoping that the whole concept of provisional rules that we work with for a year and do some tweaking and tuning on as we go will be a success and will henceforth be adopted for all the rules, not just the multi-gun rules.

[mactiger]

I will hazard a guess....that rule was probably intended to prevent multiple pistols being used with no thought about the implications this would have to 3-Gun...which probably didn't appear on the radar when that rule was written. I don't have a huge collection of rule books but I would bet that wasn't a new rule in the Red book.

Kimel has hit the nail pretty much on the head, as far as I understand why this rule exists.

Good analogy, George. The main difference between your "process" (which is probably way more flexible, and I assume you can't break the law to get things done) and USPSA's is that USPSA is bound by the USPSA bylaws and as a member region of IPSC, their policies and bylaws, to the extent that we haven't been officially exempted from them. (The ability to make US versions of the rules, for instance.) Within the USPSA process, there are at least 9 people involved, not just one or two. That slows things down a bit, too.

Does the process need to change to be more readily adaptable to the customers wishes? Yes. Is that going to be easy or quick? Not likely, but I think the BOD is working towards making it more flexible.

The new provisional multigun rules are a start. The process should involve anyone and everyone with an interest in growing USPSA 3 Gun.

Troy

[George]

Thanks Kevin,

That pretty much nails the logic I just could not see when I looked at it. Wow, that actually makes a weird type of sense now that I see it.

Troy, you are right on about the body of work and the methodology it takes to adhere to process. I guess my optimism must be tempered by the reality of inertia, and the momentum of same. I am of the mind that the corners that are getting cut are going to enable a good fit in the end here.

Let's go to Reno and see if we can validate, or bust this revised framework.

--

Regards,

[jkmccoy]

Kurt (and everyone else who is interested),

USPSA as an organization is not perfect. As others have pointed out when the organization gets larger the bureaucracy also gets larger and the wheels tend to grind slower. There have definitely been examples where the wheels ground far too slowly to accommodate the needs/wishes of the shooters. It is part of the price we pay for being part of an international organization.

However...The BOD has now given us a set of provisional rules that will allow us to run real 3-Gun matches (sort-of, I'm already requesting some revisions). We have run multi-gun stages at the last two Texas State 3-Gun matches (with approval from Amidon).

I don't think that USPSA or any of the administration are working against running real 3-gun matches. Quite the contrary, I think they are working very hard to provide rules that will allow matches that the shooters really want to shoot. They are hindered by the weight of the bureaucracy that determines how rules are written and approved. Give them a chance. I think they will eventually come up with a set of rules that will govern really fun 3-Gun matches.

Don't give up on USPSA. There are some good 3-Gun matches in USPSA (real 3-Gun matches). I think there will be more with the new rules. I assure you that the Texas State 3-Gun will continue to be a real multi-gun match.

Kurt, even if you don't renew your membership we'll let you shoot next year.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

SAGC

[kurtm]

Troy and Kelly:

Yes I agree!! I can sense your frustration with this situation also. I would Never change a rule DURRING a match.....but I sure might at the shooters meeting . From My perspective, it has been 10 years since people have been asking for this little change. Even the US government can change in that amount of time. I picture USPSA as the buggy whip manufacturer that is stuck on the bullet train track.... and the train is a commin! Couldn't change in 10 years? AMMOCO couldn't, now it is B.P. I could go on with a huge list of others but I doubt that will be necessary. I do understand the problem, but USPSA has entirely too many buggy whip guys, and very few bullet train engineers. To quote a section coordinator from just 2 scant months ago, " those 3-gun guys are just a bunch of mercenary wanta bes, and using more than one gun is just PLAIN UNSAFE". Kelly thank you very much for the invite, but I am sure it would break the rules some how if I quit and then show up to shoot! I am glad that the "provisional" rules have been set forth, and the end of June will tell the story. I was sorry to see that the "speed unloading" thing is still present ( abandoned firearm clause....ooops I didn't say blaster, or hole installer, sorry), I feel that that is unnecessary weapons manipulation on the clock and causes more unsafe conditions than ever it solved, but at least these ILLEGAL RULE are a start KURTM

[mactiger]

It's probably heresy to say it, but how about becoming one of those USPSA "bullet train engineers" yourself, Kurt? You could start by trying to replace that SC you mentioned.

Troy