Pro2AInPA Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) My M&P 9 Pro with the Apex Competition AEK, ultimate striker block and RAM has developed a major problem. First a little background. I got this gun used about a week or two ago with the Apex parts already installed. Before today, I put roughly 600 trouble-free rounds through the gun. I took the gun to the range today with 100 rounds of a new load to test. I would say at least 25-30 times in those 100 rounds, the trigger failed to rest after firing a shot. Racking the slide slightly just enough to rest the trigger allowed me to fire the next at least one shot. I cannot duplicate the problem during dry fire, no matter how many times I rack the slide and pull the trigger. It only happens during live fire. Any ideas here? I'm really not happy about this and hoping it's a known issue with an easy fix. I have matches coming up and can't be without the gun. The only variable that changed is the powder used to load the ammo. But I really can't see how that would cause trigger rest issues?? Any help would be very much appreciated! Edited June 20, 2011 by Pro2AInPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhp147 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Sounds like the problem referred to as dead trigger, I think Randy Lee at Apex calls it sear flutter. I have not personally seen it but there is a LOT of discussion about it. The sear does not have time to reset in recoil, the spring is not "hot" enough, and the striker gets past it...or so I picture it. It was a big enough problem that S&W started putting in a bigger heavier spring (requires a larger hole in the sear housing block) to prevent it. The Apex upgrade now has the larger diameter spring to work with the new style SHB. You can order a new sear block from Brownell's or Midway, I hear. OR S&W will fix it but may not leave your Apex parts in. I think they went to the same housing/spring that they were using in the Mass. compliant guns. Edited June 20, 2011 by sheepdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_Linville Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 If i am thinking correctly i think that you can modify the sear housing to accept a bigger spring and plunger under the sear to correct this problem.. I think Speed Shooter does this modification.. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124849 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm starting to regret moving from Glock to an M&P. Never had issues with Glocks. Thanks for the input guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm starting to regret moving from Glock to an M&P. Never had issues with Glocks. Thanks for the input guys. You've had the M&P for only two weeks. Don't give up on it. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm starting to regret moving from Glock to an M&P. Never had issues with Glocks. Thanks for the input guys. You've had the M&P for only two weeks. Don't give up on it. A.T. Exactly. If I would have got a year or so of use out of it then developed issues, it wouldn't sting as bad. Having problems right off the bat after switching platforms is no fun. I have emails out to Apex and SSS. I'm hoping that having the sear block modified to use the new larger diameter sear plunger and spring will solve the issue, and I'm hoping that one of the two companies can do the job quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhp147 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I think it will be easier and cheaper to get one of the factory improved ones and maybe a new spring from Apex than have the old one modified. I have heard some people say the Apex upgrade makes this problem show up when it might not have otherwise but I think it is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) I think it will be easier and cheaper to get one of the factory improved ones and maybe a new spring from Apex than have the old one modified. I have heard some people say the Apex upgrade makes this problem show up when it might not have otherwise but I think it is worth it. Brownell's is showing out of stock on the sear block assembly. Anyone that you know of have them in stock? I'd much rather replace the sear housing with a new one and be done with it rather than send mine out and wait. I have a match Sunday and know that there's no way I'd get it out, modified, and back to me in time. Edited June 20, 2011 by Pro2AInPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LikesToShoot Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 "Before today, I put roughly 600 trouble-free rounds through the gun." " took the gun to the range today with 100 rounds of a new load to test. I would say at least 25-30 times in those 100 rounds, the trigger failed to rest after firing a shot" Why don't you go back to the old load for this coming match? What's your old and new loads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhp147 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Sorry, missed that it was that sudden...old load, new load. Maybe a bit more or less of a recoil impulse/slide speed would be enough to take it over the speed it will work at. Call S&W or Midway, PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I think it will be easier and cheaper to get one of the factory improved ones and maybe a new spring from Apex than have the old one modified. I have heard some people say the Apex upgrade makes this problem show up when it might not have otherwise but I think it is worth it. Brownell's is showing out of stock on the sear block assembly. Anyone that you know of have them in stock? I'd much rather replace the sear housing with a new one and be done with it rather than send mine out and wait. I have a match Sunday and know that there's no way I'd get it out, modified, and back to me in time. Check Speed Shooters Specialties. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) I think it will be easier and cheaper to get one of the factory improved ones and maybe a new spring from Apex than have the old one modified. I have heard some people say the Apex upgrade makes this problem show up when it might not have otherwise but I think it is worth it. Brownell's is showing out of stock on the sear block assembly. Anyone that you know of have them in stock? I'd much rather replace the sear housing with a new one and be done with it rather than send mine out and wait. I have a match Sunday and know that there's no way I'd get it out, modified, and back to me in time. Check Speed Shooters Specialties. A.T. Will do, thanks. Edited June 20, 2011 by Pro2AInPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I had occasional Failures To Reset with one of mine. I tried the RAM and it seemed to make the problem happen much more often. I would still go with fixing the sear spring but try shooting it without the RAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I had occasional Failures To Reset with one of mine. I tried the RAM and it seemed to make the problem happen much more often. I would still go with fixing the sear spring but try shooting it without the RAM. I HATE shooting the competition AEK without the RAM. The reset is horrible. I think I'm on the right track to taking care of this. Found someone selling sear housings with the larger sear spring and plunger. Should be good to go once I get that in the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETexPops Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Apex Tactical will mill the SBH and install the "new" larger plunger and spring. $25 plus $7.50 shipping. Give them a call and they can fix you up. Just had mine done prior to installing the comp trigger kit in my 9 Pro. Sent it out on a Friday and it was back in my hands the following Friday. Roughly the same price as a new SBH and both Midway and Brownell's were both out of stock at the time. Good luck in getting the problem resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Apex Tactical will mill the SBH and install the "new" larger plunger and spring. $25 plus $7.50 shipping. Give them a call and they can fix you up. Just had mine done prior to installing the comp trigger kit in my 9 Pro. Sent it out on a Friday and it was back in my hands the following Friday. Roughly the same price as a new SBH and both Midway and Brownell's were both out of stock at the time. Good luck in getting the problem resolved. They told it would take two weeks. I'd rather not miss 3 matches. So I'm going to buy a replacement housing and once it's installed send mine to Apex for the modification and keep it as a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I had occasional Failures To Reset with one of mine. I tried the RAM and it seemed to make the problem happen much more often. I would still go with fixing the sear spring but try shooting it without the RAM. I had the same problem, so I didn't use the RAM for a long time while I waited for Brownells to have the upgraded sear blocks in stock. The block I ordered in November had the old style spring/plunger in it. They seem to be selling the new ones now though (when they have them in stock) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I can usually get most M&P's to dead trigger if I hold the trigger in the "sweet spot". It's not really a "sweet" spot, but there is point where the trigger is pulled just enough to allow the trigger bar to hold onto the sear and let the striker pass right by. There is a reason why I work over the "drop in" Apex kits. The shorter the reset the less it will dead trigger too. Your finger naturally comes off the trigger enough to get out of the "sweet" spot. If you pull and hold the trigger, it is VERY rare to get the dead trigger. Take the Ram out and retest. The ram is holding the trigger bar against the sear. If it resets properly, take the sear assembly out, pivot the trigger bar up, then bend it inwards .020". Measured at the 110ish degree bend on the sear loop end. This will give you a slight click for reset. Too much and it mimics using a RAM. If you couldn't tell, I've worked through this a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) I can usually get most M&P's to dead trigger if I hold the trigger in the "sweet spot". It's not really a "sweet" spot, but there is point where the trigger is pulled just enough to allow the trigger bar to hold onto the sear and let the striker pass right by. There is a reason why I work over the "drop in" Apex kits. The shorter the reset the less it will dead trigger too. Your finger naturally comes off the trigger enough to get out of the "sweet" spot. If you pull and hold the trigger, it is VERY rare to get the dead trigger. Take the Ram out and retest. The ram is holding the trigger bar against the sear. If it resets properly, take the sear assembly out, pivot the trigger bar up, then bend it inwards .020". Measured at the 110ish degree bend on the sear loop end. This will give you a slight click for reset. Too much and it mimics using a RAM. If you couldn't tell, I've worked through this a few times. It failed to reset no matter where I held my finger after the shot, and when I totally let go of the trigger after the shot. Wasn't a sweet spot issue. As far as the rest of your post regarding bending things, not gonna happen. I don't have the skill. I have a new sear housing block on the way with the larger sear spring and plunger. I'm hoping that solves the issue. Edited June 20, 2011 by Pro2AInPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Take the Ram out and retest. The ram is holding the trigger bar against the sear. If it resets properly, take the sear assembly out, pivot the trigger bar up, then bend it inwards .020". Measured at the 110ish degree bend on the sear loop end. This will give you a slight click for reset. Too much and it mimics using a RAM. If you couldn't tell, I've worked through this a few times. Thanks for the instructions! Too bad I already gave the RAM away when it seemed to cause more problems than it solved for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Take the Ram out and retest. The ram is holding the trigger bar against the sear. If it resets properly, take the sear assembly out, pivot the trigger bar up, then bend it inwards .020". Measured at the 110ish degree bend on the sear loop end. This will give you a slight click for reset. Too much and it mimics using a RAM. If you couldn't tell, I've worked through this a few times. Thanks for the instructions! Too bad I already gave the RAM away when it seemed to cause more problems than it solved for me. I sincerely hope I don't have to get rid of the RAM. The reset is awful without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Kenny at Speed Shooters Specialties is out west prairie dog hunting for the next 10 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseman Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 In case the new sear block does not fix here is my story. Smith did a trigger job and it worked for 3 or 4 hundred rounds got traded and new owner immediately had trigger reset problems. I bought the 5 inch pro and had awful reset problems 2-4 times per mag. Asked the smith who did the job what's up and he said the Apex Ram was the fix. Put that in and no worse no better. Took to another smith and he replaced the trigger. Said trigger bar was bent. 1500 rounds and works the best. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 In case the new sear block does not fix here is my story. Smith did a trigger job and it worked for 3 or 4 hundred rounds got traded and new owner immediately had trigger reset problems. I bought the 5 inch pro and had awful reset problems 2-4 times per mag. Asked the smith who did the job what's up and he said the Apex Ram was the fix. Put that in and no worse no better. Took to another smith and he replaced the trigger. Said trigger bar was bent. 1500 rounds and works the best. YMMV Well at least if it needs a new trigger assembly that's a $13 fix. Thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98006 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Clean the sear area and the spring area underneath it. Sometimes it gets gunked up. mine had the problem and a good cleaning cleared it up 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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