Masking tape fault lines

[Skydiver]

So if I go to a Level I indoor USPSA match and one of the stages has fault lines marked the on the concrete floor with masking tape. If I am penalized for a foot fault, do I have any recourse by saying the course was not legal because there was not a physical border that I could feel if I was faulting?

2.2.1.1 stipulates a minimum thickness. The question is whether the "should" at the beginning of the rule apply to the sentence about the minimum thickness?

Personally, I think it's an illegal stage.

[aztecdriver]

Nice question - our indoor match uses furring strips duct taped to the floor. It works extremely well on concrete - just make sure it's taped FIRMLY in an area someone is going to go flying into - yes - personal experience.

Let's look at the rule...

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended

The way I read this, the should references the construction. The phrase must is brought in next to describe how it's fixed. Because of the construction of the sentence, the next clause is separate from the "should" in the beginning. It needs to provide both a visual AND physical reference. Masking tape does not do that. Following that .75 inch is the minimum allowable. How does should have a bearing on it?

Masking tape, IMHO doesn't provide physical separation. If I step on the tape with me foot just before the ball - how can you tell if I am actually touching the ground on the other side? My shoes have definite roll up in the toe and I can flex my toes upward to keep my shoe from touching. Did they get down there and see the sole touch on the other side of the tape? I'm with you... but that's my opinion.

Edited June 3, 2011 by aztecdriver

[bluenite]

I say no.

2.2.1.1 goes on to say “for hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size.

Indoor shoots here use 1/8 flat steel boxes, they are handy in that they can be duct taped to the floor, but I have brought up this very question as I can not feel them with my feet.

But it’s a match and I like to shoot “so I shoot”.

Leonard

[Flexmoney]

Fault lines need a physical element. Tape don't cut it.

[Singlestack]

If you shoot it, you can not claim it is an illegal stage after getting a procedural.

[aztecdriver]

If you shoot it, you can not claim it is an illegal stage after getting a procedural.

This one caught me by surprise in a discussion - so I thought I would point out the rule 'stack is referring to... I had to look it up.

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

[Joe4d]

you could always ask "what fault line ?" "there isnt any fault lines on this stage"

[Nik Habicht]

So if I go to a Level I indoor USPSA match and one of the stages has fault lines marked the on the concrete floor with masking tape. If I am penalized for a foot fault, do I have any recourse by saying the course was not legal because there was not a physical border that I could feel if I was faulting?

2.2.1.1 stipulates a minimum thickness. The question is whether the "should" at the beginning of the rule apply to the sentence about the minimum thickness?

Personally, I think it's an illegal stage.

Technically you're correct. I know the folks at the Old Bridge Indoor practice match try to utilize props and barriers on their "field courses," partly for that reason, and partly because the props usually have ports cut into them. On the other hand, in the latter part of the evening, after the two field courses have been completed, they'll often reset to something stationary, that resembles a classifier or standard exercise, often fired -- without movement -- from behind a fault line. There, I'm perfectly fine with a line on the floor....

[pjb45]

I shot a bunch of indoor matches outside of Baton Rouge which had 'soft' lines for boxes. Actually I shot with the section coordinator. No One Complained.

I am all in favor of making allowances when the situation arises.

[aztecdriver]

I shot a bunch of indoor matches outside of Baton Rouge which had 'soft' lines for boxes. Actually I shot with the section coordinator. No One Complained.

I am all in favor of making allowances when the situation arises.

That's fine as long as you don't ding someone stepping their pinky toe over the line. Give what you get I always say... still though - target sticks double as fault lines. it's real easy to do.

[LPatterson]

I shot a bunch of indoor matches outside of Baton Rouge which had 'soft' lines for boxes. Actually I shot with the section coordinator. No One Complained.

I am all in favor of making allowances when the situation arises.

Just because the Section Coordinator didn't say something to the Match Director doesn't make it right. Rules are rules for a reason and if they aren't followed locally, then how do you explain to someone getting bumped to Open at a Level II or III match because they were just doing what they have done locally.

[pjb45]

I am pretty sure the Section Coordinator was the Match Director. I do not believe they were ever level 1 matches. I was just happy to be able to shoot a 'match' during the week, even if the roof leaked and there were pools of waters everywhere.

I guess I am more pragmatic than I should be. Sometimes the reality of the situation dictates how things can be accomplished.

[Singlestack]

I am pretty sure the Section Coordinator was the Match Director. I do not believe they were ever level 1 matches. I was just happy to be able to shoot a 'match' during the week, even if the roof leaked and there were pools of waters everywhere.

I guess I am more pragmatic than I should be. Sometimes the reality of the situation dictates how things can be accomplished.

There is always a way to do things "right".

[Schutzenmeister]

I am pretty sure the Section Coordinator was the Match Director. I do not believe they were ever level 1 matches. I was just happy to be able to shoot a 'match' during the week, even if the roof leaked and there were pools of waters everywhere.

I guess I am more pragmatic than I should be. Sometimes the reality of the situation dictates how things can be accomplished.

Forgive me, but if it wasn't a Level 1 match, what was it? I guess that if it wasn't a USPSA match one could perhaps refer to it as a "Level 0" match and apply any rules they want. However, in a USPSA match, if a "fault line" does not meet the minimum criteria of 2.2.1.1, it is not a fault line and therefore should not be penalized as such under 10.2.1.

[mactiger]

I think the "matches" in question were actually Wednesday night practice sessions. I never saw any results published. They did keep score, sorta, but not officially.

[aztecdriver]

I think the "matches" in question were actually Wednesday night practice sessions. I never saw any results published. They did keep score, sorta, but not officially.

Right - Indoor, we run a match every week. The last Tuesday of the month is our "official match", the rest are "fun shoots". Our club takes the tact that we're going to run them all the same, to USPSA standards, because that's how we roll. If another club wants to do the other matches as fun shoots and their official monthly one strictly by USPSA rules - I don't think there is much we can say about it but vote with our feet.

[pjb45]

You are right Troy.