IDPA Gaming

[sirveyr]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA,

What is HOA?

High Over All: The best score of the entire division. HOA is a USPSA award. The IDPA equivalent would be DC or Division Champion.

[shootaglock89]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA,

What is HOA?

High Over All: The best score of the entire division. HOA is a USPSA award. The IDPA equivalent would be DC or Division Champion.

Gotcha

[astephenson]

Well said. I hate designing stages when I know certain people are going to be around. I spend more time trying to find the angles the "gamers" are gonna try and exploit than I do making a fun and challenging COF.

Then you have all the arguments that stem from the "gamers" superior intellect and understanding of the rules as they have read them. I'm here to shoot not argue with you over what two to the body and one to the head means or wether or not this area is in fact cover. Not only are the arguments distracting and time consuming but then people start to get confused as to what the rules REALLY state.

The way I see it is if you're not into the spirit of the game then maybe you should just go shoot another game. BTW, don't take that as a knock on USPSA. I'm dying to try USPSA as the videos I've seen look like a blast! Just don't have a USPSA club to play with yet.

A bullet-proof Course of Fire and stage briefing should eliminate problems such as these.

Also, if I'm acting as an SO I will not "argue" the rulebook with a shooter. Make the call, and be prepared to explain why (which means you have to have an intimate understanding of the rulebook), but never engage in an argument.

[hankfan79]

I hope that shootaglock is not who I think it is.

[jualdeaux]

I'll throw in a couple of oddball tips

1) If you have to place the magazines on a table, make sure the bullets are facing up. That way you can grab them properly before inserting them into the pistol.

2) Chair starts. If the starting position is seated in a chair sit at the very front of the chair with your feet underneath you. Why take time to shift your weight forward and pull your feet underneath you before standing up? Unless, of course, the stage description states that you have to have your back touching the back of the chair.

3) I tend to do moving tactical sequence arrays the opposite of other people. Most people when moving left to right will shoot the targets left to right for the first shot. But, by the last shot, that far left target is much farther away. By shooting it right to left first, all the targets will be closer to you. You can see how what I mean with this

. Look at the 30 second mark.

4) I almost forgot. When I do table starts, I take the time up front to put the extra mag in the mag holders. Every time I don't I still reach for it there before I remember that is in the vest pocket. That is also shown in the above video at the 45 second mark.

[shootaglock89]

I hope that shootaglock is not who I think it is.

I hope Hankfan79 isnt who i think it is

Edited April 27, 2011 by shootaglock89

[Loves2Shoot]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA,

What is HOA?

High Over All: The best score of the entire division. HOA is a USPSA award. The IDPA equivalent would be DC or Division Champion.

I meant the lowest time of the whole match, all divisions. The SSP ESP separation is just silly IMO, but it does make more "winners."

[hankfan79]

Not silly when it comes to double stack 1911'a vs a Glock. Pretty clear.

The same Glock is two divisions...yeah that is kinda silly.

[Loves2Shoot]

Well, for the last 3 years, Glocks beat all the fancy double stack 2011's. I'm not sure how the folks at IDPA HQ make this square with the classifier time differences. I know that I shoot the same times with my G17 as I do my SVI 2011, so to me it is quite silly, but YMMV.

2010

ESP Champion: Taran Butler Master 255.46 (69)

SSP Champion: Dave Sevigny Master 246.30 (58)

2009

ESP Champion: Bob Vogel Master 230.47 (38)

SSP Champion: Dave Sevigny Master 222.56 (41)

2008

ESP Master

DC Vogel, Bob OH 189.99

SSP Master

DC Sevigny, Dave GA 184.36

[hankfan79]

Has nothng to do with scores or who wins what. Has to do with gun types.

So I guess Production and Limited are silly as well?

Taran doesn't shoot a Glock and why would Robert and Dave compete against each other when they can race for their OWN division title?

[shootaglock89]

Well, for the last 3 years, Glocks beat all the fancy double stack 2011's. I'm not sure how the folks at IDPA HQ make this square with the classifier time differences. I know that I shoot the same times with my G17 as I do my SVI 2011, so to me it is quite silly, but YMMV.

I feel the benefits of ESP are pretty clear. Extended Magwells, SingleAction, Permanent grip enhancement,etc.These things should save you time in operation of a weapon, or enhance your operation of a pistol. So, you should in theory be able to shoot it faster. Therefore, Classification Time Differences. An Enhanced Gun might not save you 10 seconds over a classifier, but times had to be set somewhere.

[JerryShoots]

Yeah I game who doesn't. I have fun doing it though and I shake hands with a big big genuine smile with the winner of a match when I lose. Being a gamer doesn't mean your a bad sport

That being said heres my tips (setting sarcasm level to maximum overdrive...No I don't actually DO this stuff but threads like this bring out the mad professor in me MUha.haha...HAHAHAHA!)

TOP TEN BEST LETTERMAN STYLE

#10 Wear Class IV body armor all day long. Then if they yell at you for "cover" you can say that more than 50% of you is ALWAYS behind cover :devil:

#9 If you are tanking a stage back up really fast until you bump into the SO then demand a reshoot (ooooooooohhhh so wrong...wrong bad wrong so wrong)

#8 Shoot the classifier with your gun upside down so you can stay out of Master (Do it fast though you still have to beat up the Marksmen and Novices for their milk money at the lunch break)

#7 Write in under assumed names and enter the Marksman division of SSR 9 times then once as yourself. Go shoot the state match and get a shiny plaque when the other 9 guys oddly don't show up and all get DNF's

#6 Give away free 3 week old shrimp cocktail to all the guys in your division the night before the match.

#5 Eat any and all kryptonite you find in hopes of becoming a meteor freak.

#4 Wear a dress. Carry a bubble gum pink blaster. Big Paris Hilton shades. They can't outshoot what they can't stop laughing at.

#3 Invest in laser technology and be the first to sneak in through the 9mm diameter ray gun burn hole loophole. (.00000000001 grains x the speed of light is still like 80 trillion power factor!)

#2 Claim a genetic flaw that inhibits you from doing all forms of math. Get a doctor's note. Round dump at your leisure.

And the Number 1 answer is...

Hired sniper in the hills...Your gun full of blanks. Need I say more

Thanks for the thread Single. I may never be sarcastic again after this post

[jmorris]

I would like to know all the tricks that IDPA "gamers " use. Time savers, gun setups, etc.

If everybody knew and implemented all of the "tricks" there would be no game to gamers anylonger.

FWIW gaming is not cheating. If you say "X" is good gaming as long as you don't get caught, your cheating not gaming, simple as that.

[hankfan79]

Jerry,

You ain't right man...

[Loves2Shoot]

Has nothng to do with scores or who wins what. Has to do with gun types.

So I guess Production and Limited are silly as well?

Taran doesn't shoot a Glock and why would Robert and Dave compete against each other when they can race for their OWN division title?

Production - Minor and 10 round, so not the same comparison.

Taran shoots a lot of Glocks.

[Loves2Shoot]

Well, for the last 3 years, Glocks beat all the fancy double stack 2011's. I'm not sure how the folks at IDPA HQ make this square with the classifier time differences. I know that I shoot the same times with my G17 as I do my SVI 2011, so to me it is quite silly, but YMMV.

I feel the benefits of ESP are pretty clear. Extended Magwells, SingleAction, Permanent grip enhancement,etc.These things should save you time in operation of a weapon, or enhance your operation of a pistol. So, you should in theory be able to shoot it faster. Therefore, Classification Time Differences. An Enhanced Gun might not save you 10 seconds over a classifier, but times had to be set somewhere.

You hit it on the head, "you feel" they should make you a better shooter, but the testing I've done in the different guns head to head over the years shows on thing, the pistols in question can be driven just as fast as each other IF you know how to use that platform.

The time seems completely arbitrary, 10 seconds is just silly.

Take a Glock the dominant SSP pistol, put a decent trigger, sights, and it doesn't need a mag well since for some reason filling in the hole that makes the mag well suck is legal to do, then you have a gun that a skilled shooter can shoot to the same level as the tricked out 2011. With the addition of the M&P to the SSP division, you have two pistols with single action like trigger (once worked over a little) and huge magwells compared to a 1911.

The ONLY reason I bring this up is because if you think the difference in the performance comes from the fancy 2011 versus a decently equipped Glock, M&P, XD, then I know a bunch of folks who would prove you wrong by performance. That is why I judge my "real" finish from the top of the list down.

Jerry,

That was AWESOME!

[hankfan79]

As I mentioned before. It has to do with gun types not performance.

Taran won that title with an Infinity (his contracted sponsor).

[Loves2Shoot]

As I mentioned before. It has to do with gun types not performance.

Taran won that title with an Infinity (his contracted sponsor).

I know and Dave beat him with a Glock

Sort of like segregation didn't make sense to folks and it did to some.

I spend a lot of time making mechanical evaluations, so that is how I tend to make my conclusions.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[freeidaho]

The problem is that many would be drawing reverse conclusions if Taran and Dave were hired by STI.

The guns are not winning, the shooters are winning no matter what they are handed.

kr

[motosapiens]

I am new to IDPA. But I have heard the same from people, "I dont care about winning." or, "Score really doesnt matter.". I will not enter a COMPETITION with no intention of winning.

<snip>

I do not train to survive or do just good enough. I train to win. "Loser's always talk about having done their best. Winners go home and bang the prom queen."

So I too would like to hear of was to cut time while still maintaining sportsmanship.

Some good points in this thread. I have no problem or criticism with your philosophy, mine is only *slightly* different.

Only 1 person can win. IMHO focusing excessively on that sometimes encourages people to take unethical shortcuts. I compete to test myself and to quantify my improvement. I race motorcycles as well, often at the regional and national level where it's just silly for me to have any intention of winning.

[GForceLizard]

Take a Glock the dominant SSP pistol, put a decent trigger, sights, and it doesn't need a mag well since for some reason filling in the hole that makes the mag well suck is legal to do, then you have a gun that a skilled shooter can shoot to the same level as the tricked out 2011. With the addition of the M&P to the SSP division, you have two pistols with single action like trigger (once worked over a little) and huge magwells compared to a 1911.

Local shooters are discovering that worked over M&Ps are just as fast as their 1911s. Well setup Glocks and M&Ps make SSP and ESP kinda blend together.

[Loves2Shoot]

The problem is that many would be drawing reverse conclusions if Taran and Dave were hired by STI.

The guns are not winning, the shooters are winning no matter what they are handed.

kr

Taran is sponsored by SVI, but he could perform at the same level with the Glock.

GForceLizard's observation is what we've found to be true in testing a wide variety of shooters with different skill level and well set up Glock, M&P, XD, 1911 9mm and SVI 2011 .40 minor. There was no statistical difference in performance across the platforms, although there were preferences in what gun felt the best to the shooters.

IDPA was founded as a "NOT IPSC" shooting sport, and I think that has much more to do the divisions than actual performance of the firearm. They had to do something to separate out the "fancy gamer guns" while having a division for the service pistols play. By allowing those same services pistols to be modified where they can perform to the same level as the "fancy gamer guns" the SSP ESP division became a purely political separation.

If you are shooting in SSP and your ESP buddy beats you (or the other way around) you should be aware, it wasn't the gun that made the difference, you'd better go practice.

[Duane Thomas]

IDPA has always been separated internally, one might even say philosophically, into two separate sorts of guns (I'm referencing the auto pistol divisions here since that's what we're discussing), at least as far as the amount and type of modifications you are allowed to perform to the guns. In Stock Service Pistol we have very basic, very affordable guns, and we are limited to sights, trigers, a roll of grip tape, and not much else. Custom Defensive Pistol and Enhanced Service Pistol by contrast are primarily venues for "art guns", custom 1911s, in which we are allowed to do all the things we love doing to custom 1911s.

I don't think it's that the divide in classifier scores was, for some reason, politically driven, as much as it was that, at the time the sport was being formalized in 1996, it was just assumed, something that "common sense" told people, that of course you could shoot a 39-42 ounce 1911 with ultra-short, light trigger pulls better than a 25 ounce Glock with trigger pulls considerably longer and heavier. In the intervening years, largely because of what we've learned from the performance of top shooters in IDPA, and then when the success of IDPA spurred the creation of Production division, which mimics IDPA SSP, we have discovered that ain't necessarily true.

[Rob Tompkins]

Its a game, play the game to the limit of the rules!

One thing not mentioned but I think is assumed is when you're moving from point to point - RUN!!! Don't walk, saunter, or jog! So many times I've seen shooters lose time by not going as fast as they can.

[shootaglock89]

Agreed. It can save several seconds a stage.