Vlad Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 So .. I'd say people should take a look at the picture in Appendix E3. Look at the graphical reprsentation of where your hip bone starts. Then look at the pants in the drawing. Then stand up and look at your pants and where your hips are (by USPSA definition of hips as per E3) and then look at where you pockets are. Unless you have pockets on the front of pants this is somewhat unimportant. I've been looking at this thread for a couple of days now and I actually looked at ALL my pants, shorts, hunting camo pants, hiking pants, denims, pajama bottoms, sweat pants, exercise shorts, even my 20 year old pair of sweat shorts I wear while painting my house, and out of ALL of them a single pair of shorts had a pocket that would have failed the test, and it is to small to fit a mag in it. Ok I lied, I didn't really check my painting shorts, but I know they have no pockets. If E3 is correct, the only to have a mag in a pocket in front of your hip bone it is because you have some really funny pants (flight suit pants maybe) or you were once a fan of Kriss Kross and you wear your pants backwards . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from front pocket *Welcome to Open* Seems open to debate again. Originally, I would have said no and pointed out 5.2.4's "during the course of fire, after the start signal" phrase, but with Amidon's latest published clarification it now sounds like "anytime". (Much like the "securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of 3 belt loops" clarification establishes that belt loops are required irregardless of how secure the belt is on your waist.) "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from rear pouch, pops 11th round off for unloaded start and puts it in his front pocket *Welcome to Open* Amirite? No. The division requirement for production is "maximum 10 rounds after the start signal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from front pocket *Welcome to Open* Seems open to debate again. Originally, I would have said no and pointed out 5.2.4's "during the course of fire, after the start signal" phrase, but with Amidon's latest published clarification it now sounds like "anytime". (Much like the "securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of 3 belt loops" clarification establishes that belt loops are required irregardless of how secure the belt is on your waist.) "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from rear pouch, pops 11th round off for unloaded start and puts it in his front pocket*Welcome to Open* Amirite? No. The division requirement for production is "maximum 10 rounds after the start signal". I think he's talking about the 11th round in his front pocket... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) So .. I'd say people should take a look at the picture in Appendix E3. Look at the graphical reprsentation of where your hip bone starts. Then look at the pants in the drawing. Then stand up and look at your pants and where your hips are (by USPSA definition of hips as per E3) and then look at where you pockets are. Unless you have pockets on the front of pants this is somewhat unimportant. I've been looking at this thread for a couple of days now and I actually looked at ALL my pants, shorts, hunting camo pants, hiking pants, denims, pajama bottoms, sweat pants, exercise shorts, even my 20 year old pair of sweat shorts I wear while painting my house, and out of ALL of them a single pair of shorts had a pocket that would have failed the test, and it is to small to fit a mag in it. Ok I lied, I didn't really check my painting shorts, but I know they have no pockets. If E3 is correct, the only to have a mag in a pocket in front of your hip bone it is because you have some really funny pants (flight suit pants maybe) or you were once a fan of Kriss Kross and you wear your pants backwards . So given this picture: Are saying that the guy's fingers in the pocket are all behind the front most part of the top of the hipbone? And therefore, not only should mags be allowed in the front pocket, a production and single stack shooter should also be able to place their holsters and mag pouches that far forward? Edited April 8, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from front pocket *Welcome to Open* Seems open to debate again. Originally, I would have said no and pointed out 5.2.4's "during the course of fire, after the start signal" phrase, but with Amidon's latest published clarification it now sounds like "anytime". (Much like the "securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of 3 belt loops" clarification establishes that belt loops are required irregardless of how secure the belt is on your waist.) "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from rear pouch, pops 11th round off for unloaded start and puts it in his front pocket *Welcome to Open* Amirite? No. The division requirement for production is "maximum 10 rounds after the start signal". 1) Fine, still don't know. This is why I added a 6th pouch to my belt. 2) Are we not saying that any ammo forward of the hip bone at the very least during the CoF is not legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from front pocket *Welcome to Open* Seems open to debate again. Originally, I would have said no and pointed out 5.2.4's "during the course of fire, after the start signal" phrase, but with Amidon's latest published clarification it now sounds like "anytime". (Much like the "securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of 3 belt loops" clarification establishes that belt loops are required irregardless of how secure the belt is on your waist.) "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from rear pouch, pops 11th round off for unloaded start and puts it in his front pocket *Welcome to Open* Amirite? No. The division requirement for production is "maximum 10 rounds after the start signal". 1) Fine, still don't know. This is why I added a 6th pouch to my belt. 2) Are we not saying that any ammo forward of the hip bone at the very least during the CoF is not legal? You're right! I missed that part about putting the stripped off bullet into the front pocket, as well as forgot about the TSA pat down train of thought. I need more caffeine. That would also mean, that if at ULSC, if I catch and hand back the shooter's bullet and they put it on their front pocket before "Range is Clear", they also get bumped to open. *sigh* Edited April 8, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from front pocket *Welcome to Open* Seems open to debate again. Originally, I would have said no and pointed out 5.2.4's "during the course of fire, after the start signal" phrase, but with Amidon's latest published clarification it now sounds like "anytime". (Much like the "securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of 3 belt loops" clarification establishes that belt loops are required irregardless of how secure the belt is on your waist.) "Make Ready" Shooter pulls start mag from rear pouch, pops 11th round off for unloaded start and puts it in his front pocket *Welcome to Open* Amirite? No. The division requirement for production is "maximum 10 rounds after the start signal". 1) Fine, still don't know. This is why I added a 6th pouch to my belt. 2) Are we not saying that any ammo forward of the hip bone at the very least during the CoF is not legal? You're right! I missed that part about putting the stripped off bullet into the front pocket, as well as forgot about the TSA pat down train of thought. I need more caffeine. That would also mean, that if at ULSC, if I catch and hand back the shooter's bullet and they put it on their front pocket before "Range is Clear", they also get bumped to open. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Very simple way around all of this...... SHOOT OPEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I closed this a few minutes ago, but then decided not to let one or two people who've not mastered the skill of self-control ruin it for everyone else. Those posts and the replies to them have been removed. If yours was one of them, that's where it went. Please see this text at the top of the page: Due to incessant bickering typical of the Rules Forum, we've (Admin/Moderators) come close to deleting the Rules Forum altogether. (Several times.) We've decided to keep it (by a narrow margin), however, with this stipulation:No antagonistic tones will be tolerated. Please post respectfully or don't post at all. Threads or posts not following this spirit will be locked or deleted, and offenders will be warned or banned from posting. Please, for the life of the Rules Forum and the constructive input gained from it, participate appropriately. Thank you, Play nice, or play elsewhere. Repeat offenders will not be looked upon favorably. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Very simple way around all of this...... SHOOT OPEN! I guess so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules.Answer Unfortunately, yes it does. Given that Amidon uses the word “unfortunately,” could it be that even he thinks throwing a Single Stack/Production shooter into Open for having a loose round or Barney mag in one's front pocket is tad unreasonable, though perhaps necessary given the wording of the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules.Answer Unfortunately, yes it does. Given that Amidon uses the word “unfortunately,” could it be that even he thinks throwing a Single Stack/Production shooter into Open for having a loose round or Barney mag in one's front pocket is tad unreasonable, though perhaps necessary given the wording of the rules? I feel reasonably safe saying that, were I in his position, I would feel that it was unfortunate that a well-meaning competitor could be bumped to open for forgetting to put their barney mag away in their back pocket. I think the unfortunate part is that it is a technical violation that offers no advantage. Ultimately, rules are rules, and no one is forced to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I feel reasonably safe saying that, were I in his position, I would feel that it was unfortunate that a well-meaning competitor could be bumped to open for forgetting to put their barney mag away in their back pocket. Worse and I think a likely more frequent occurrence is a shooter could be bumped into open for having a single round left in their front pocket from the prior stages unload and show clear. And anther question, is the rule even enforceable? Does the RO have the right pad down a shooters pockets or force them to empty them? Can they do it arbitrarily? Do they need probable cause? What constitutes probable cause? Can the RO use racial profiling? Has this rule ever even been enforced? It just seems like a big can of worms for something so trivial and for something that serves no practical purpose other than to inconvenience shooters. I think the unfortunate part is that it is a technical violation that offers no advantage. Ultimately, rules are rules, and no one is forced to play. I agree rules are rules, but USPSA has a history of changing rules that are unreasonable, and/or unenforceable, and I think this is much to their credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 And anther question, is the rule even enforceable? Does the RO have the right pad down a shooters pockets or force them to empty them? Can they do it arbitrarily? Do they need probable cause? What constitutes probable cause? Can the RO use racial profiling? Has this rule ever even been enforced? Sure, the rule is enforceable -- but other than joking about it, no one has suggested patting shooters down. I'd enforce the rule when I noticed the infraction -- and for that to happen, a competitor would probably need to retrieve a mag from a front pocket while shooting the stage.... As far as I'm concerned rules serve two purposes: 1. To deal with potential or actual safety problems 2. To deal with competitive equity Therefore, when I make a call, it is to answer one of those questions..... I don't go around actively looking to make calls like these. I do, for instance, count rounds when running shooters in divisions other that Open and Limited, and I do look at magazines left on the ground, on occasion. I do pay attention to the myriad of things I need to notice to ensure the safety of everyone on the range. I'm not patting anyone down, or searching their range bag.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatekeeper Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 So at "make ready" a starter mag or loose round pulled out of front pocket is a ticket to open?? I thought "after the start signal" was the beep Hmmmm..... 0.13 Julie G. pulls starter mag then tops off from front pocket. 3.23 Rob L. pulls round from front pocket. Guess I'm not the only one that should have been bumped to open in the past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 So at "make ready" a starter mag or loose round pulled out of front pocket is a ticket to open?? I thought "after the start signal" was the beep... 6.2.5.1 is not limited to after the start signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 So at "make ready" a starter mag or loose round pulled out of front pocket is a ticket to open?? I thought "after the start signal" was the beep... 6.2.5.1 is not limited to after the start signal. right! 5.2.4 is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 3.23 Rob L. pulls round from front pocket. Guess I'm not the only one that should have been bumped to open in the past Yikes, that match could have had a different outcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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