Understanding 5.2.4

[mhs]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

[Nik Habicht]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

No. It provides some basic guidance in line with best practices ("shall be carried") while leaving plenty of leeway for competitors who want to practice the same way they carry, or for new competitors who may not have an adequate number of magpouches....

[MarkCO]

I've been told, but can't seem to find any such clarification, that it is meant to prohibit gaming by putting ammo in a back pocket, say on a prone stage, when it could have been in a mag pouch.

[mhs]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

No. It provides some basic guidance in line with best practices ("shall be carried") while leaving plenty of leeway for competitors who want to practice the same way they carry, or for new competitors who may not have an adequate number of magpouches....

If you check Meriam-Webster online the seemingly applicable definition of shall is: "used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory"

I was thinking about this rule because I normally put the 11th round from my first mag in my pocket for unloaded starts, and it just dawned on me that it is technically illegal.

[mhs]

I've been told, but can't seem to find any such clarification, that it is meant to prohibit gaming by putting ammo in a back pocket, say on a prone stage, when it could have been in a mag pouch.

I think the back pocket is legal with a mag or speed-loading device. I'm just not sure about loose ammo.

[Nik Habicht]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

No. It provides some basic guidance in line with best practices ("shall be carried") while leaving plenty of leeway for competitors who want to practice the same way they carry, or for new competitors who may not have an adequate number of magpouches....

If you check Meriam-Webster online the seemingly applicable definition of shall is: "used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory"

I was thinking about this rule because I normally put the 11th round from my first mag in my pocket for unloaded starts, and it just dawned on me that it is technically illegal.

We don't have an official dictionary to define words used in the rulebook. Clearly there's a distinction between "must," used elsewhere in section 5.2, and "shall."

Bottom line -- this got kicked around briefly at the RO class I attended last fall, and unless there's a division prohibition on a particular pocket, you're golden...

[Too_Slow]

The loose round in your pocket only becomes a problem if it is in a pocket that does not comply with divisional rules and you try to retrieve and use it.

Brian

[2MoreChains]

providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

My read on the last part of 5.2.4 is if shooting SS or Prodn you cannot carry a mag in a pocket that is in front of the hip bone. Using a mag from the front pants pocket (on most pants) would bump you to Open, but the hip pocket is ok.

OK, I cheated, this came up in RO class last summer...

[JakeMartens]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

Edited April 5, 2011 by fortyfiveshooter

[Skydiver]

Remember those 70's and 80's shirts that had pockets on the sleeves? (Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTDKUb2oXh0) I think they were meant for pens or golf tees. I believe that those pockets are behind the hipbone. Would having spare ammunition there cause a bump to Open?

[SDM]

Something in your front pants pocket is not necessarily in front of your hip bone. For me it depends on the pants and how the item sits in the pocket.

[mhs]

We don't have an official dictionary to define words used in the rulebook. Clearly there's a distinction between "must," used elsewhere in section 5.2, and "shall."

Bottom line -- this got kicked around briefly at the RO class I attended last fall, and unless there's a division prohibition on a particular pocket, you're golden...

1)I've mentioned this in other posts; I don't think it's unreasonable for me to assume the rulebook uses standard definitions of words, as found in standard dictionaries.

2)If you search the rules for "shall" you'll find over a dozen instances in which "shall" is clearly used meaning "must".

3)I hope that definition of "shall" is consistent throughout the book.

[mhs]

The loose round in your pocket only becomes a problem if it is in a pocket that does not comply with divisional rules and you try to retrieve and use it.

Brian

If the location does not comply it is a violation even if you don't use it.

[mhs]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

[Nik Habicht]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

Having met members of the board -- and having read both the rulebooks they've written and many rules proposals during the working stages -- I believe I have the answer for that: Too much experience -- I don't think they ever considered the "losing proposition" of carrying and loading loose rounds.....

And clearly you're good prior to the start signal, right?

[JakeMartens]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

[mhs]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

Having met members of the board -- and having read both the rulebooks they've written and many rules proposals during the working stages -- I believe I have the answer for that: Too much experience -- I don't think they ever considered the "losing proposition" of carrying and loading loose rounds.....

And clearly you're good prior to the start signal, right?

Well...

I think having ammo, in or out of mags/speedloaders/clips, in a division-non-compliant position is an offense even before the start signal. Just like having a barney mag in front of a production shooter's hipbone at MR.

For the record, I would be very unlikely to notice a single cartridge in a pocket.

[mhs]

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Exactly.

"spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

I don't see a provision for loose ammo in pockets.

[Too_Slow]

We covered this in class with Carl Schmidt in February. As long as you do not retrieve and use it you are fine, you can have loose ammo or a full mag in your front pocket as long as you dont use it.

Brian

[mhs]

We covered this in class with Carl Schmidt in February. As long as you do not retrieve and use it you are fine, you can have loose ammo or a full mag in your front pocket as long as you dont use it.

Brian

Do I have this right? You were taught in your class that a production/ss shooter may carry a loaded mag in his pocket, in front of his hipbone, during a COF, as long as he doesn't use it.

[Too_Slow]

As long as you do not use it it has no bearing on the COF or what division you are in. It is when you use it that it becomes a problem.

Brian

[aztecdriver]

As long as you do not use it it has no bearing on the COF or what division you are in. It is when you use it that it becomes a problem.

Brian

Please email him and ask him directly to clarify. I don't know if Carl is on this board, but John has directly said differently - and it needs to be addressed.

[atbarr]

As long as you do not use it it has no bearing on the COF or what division you are in. It is when you use it that it becomes a problem.

Brian

Please email him and ask him directly to clarify. I don't know if Carl is on this board, but John has directly said differently - and it needs to be addressed.

Yeah, need to know. At the Battle in the Bluegrass, one shooter was put in open from having a mag in his front pocket. He did NOT use it in the COF.

A.T.

Edited April 5, 2011 by atbarr

[mactiger]

Carl is either being inadvertently misquoted, or he misspoke when he said that. Carrying a magazine or loose ammo in a pocket is OK, as long as it doesn't bust the division requirements for location. If carrying in your pocket does not meet division requirements, you don't have to use that magazine to be bumped to Open.

Carrying loose ammo (spare ammunition), magazines, or speedloaders in your pockets is specifically allowed by that rule, as long as you meet division requirements regarding location.

The rule spells it out clearly--I don't see what the fuss is about. You have to carry your magazines on your belt, but you may also carry them in your pockets, as long as the stage briefing allows it, and you meet division requirements for location.

There was no intent to stop reloads from a back pocket in the prone position. Where did that come from?

This rule further clarifies the "cannot start touching magazines, ammo, gun, etc.", and spells out where you can carry your ammunition.

Troy

[mactiger]

I'd call loose rounds in my pocket "spare ammunition". Wouldn't you?

Troy

You are talking about having a barney round in a pocket after the start signal

it says spare ammunition, but yes I see what you are saying, but the may also part of the rule would include the spare ammunition. As long as in Production or Single Stack it is behind the hid bone.

Barney round in a front pocket or shirt pocket would be illegal in those two divisions, but in a back pocket you are good to go

I don't see where it includes loose ammo:

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Exactly.

"spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose."

"may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

I don't see a provision for loose ammo in pockets.