Safe Area

[mhs]

As far as I can tell sweeping is legal as long as it is not in the COF. What rule would you guys apply to DQ someone sweeping themself in the safe area?

10.5.1 and 2.4.1

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.2 Practice the mounting, drawing, “dry-firing” and re-holstering of unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.3 Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a firearm.

2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories.

2.4.1 puts some restrictions on what you may do in a safe area (enumerated in .1-.4), and imposes some requirements -- gotta stay within the confines AND gotta keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction. Sweeping yourself is never safe, so you've busted 2.4.1, and that means that 10.5.1 comes into play:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

Being that I'm thorough, I'd also cite Section 10.5 in general:

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

And again, I'd need to be certain the violation had occurred, not just think it might have....

I have never seen anyone dq'd for this at a safe table, but I've issued a few muzzle warnings, to keep one from happening.

Two questions:

1)Would you DQ someone in a safe area for sweeping their hand as they tried to fix their gun, even if was pointed at the backstop? It seems obvious to me that the sweeping rule specifies COF for a reason.

2)You say "Sweeping yourself is never safe". What about 10.5.5.1?

[Nik Habicht]

As far as I can tell sweeping is legal as long as it is not in the COF. What rule would you guys apply to DQ someone sweeping themself in the safe area?

10.5.1 and 2.4.1

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.2 Practice the mounting, drawing, “dry-firing” and re-holstering of unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.3 Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a firearm.

2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories.

2.4.1 puts some restrictions on what you may do in a safe area (enumerated in .1-.4), and imposes some requirements -- gotta stay within the confines AND gotta keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction. Sweeping yourself is never safe, so you've busted 2.4.1, and that means that 10.5.1 comes into play:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

Being that I'm thorough, I'd also cite Section 10.5 in general:

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

And again, I'd need to be certain the violation had occurred, not just think it might have....

I have never seen anyone dq'd for this at a safe table, but I've issued a few muzzle warnings, to keep one from happening.

Two questions:

1)Would you DQ someone in a safe area for sweeping their hand as they tried to fix their gun, even if was pointed at the backstop? It seems obvious to me that the sweeping rule specifies COF for a reason.

2)You say "Sweeping yourself is never safe". What about 10.5.5.1?

1 -- might depend on the condition of the gun. Slide locked back, using a squib rod, cleaning rod, or pulling a bore snake through -- nope. Gun in the condition it's normally in when we shoot a stage? Maybe -- it would depend on the circumstances. In 10 years of hanging out at ranges, which at the better matches offer close to 1 safety table per pit/range, I've never had to dq a shooter for that....

2 -- Sweeping yourself is never safe. 10.5.5.1 simply acknowledges that if you are going to draw from a holster and reholster, some sweeping of yourself is inevitable. That doesn't make the practice "safe." Then again, just getting out of bed in the morning can be risky....

[mhs]

Two questions:

1)Would you DQ someone in a safe area for sweeping their hand as they tried to fix their gun, even if was pointed at the backstop? It seems obvious to me that the sweeping rule specifies COF for a reason.

2)You say "Sweeping yourself is never safe". What about 10.5.5.1?

1 -- might depend on the condition of the gun. Slide locked back, using a squib rod, cleaning rod, or pulling a bore snake through -- nope. Gun in the condition it's normally in when we shoot a stage? Maybe -- it would depend on the circumstances. In 10 years of hanging out at ranges, which at the better matches offer close to 1 safety table per pit/range, I've never had to dq a shooter for that....

2 -- Sweeping yourself is never safe. 10.5.5.1 simply acknowledges that if you are going to draw from a holster and reholster, some sweeping of yourself is inevitable. That doesn't make the practice "safe." Then again, just getting out of bed in the morning can be risky....

Two good answers.

[West Texas Granny]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

Down isn't a safe direction if you draw your pistol while facing uprange.

Then please explain how you can even start a match since the gun is loaded and holstered and pointed at the ground. Do you DQ everyone at the match?

And while I'm at it how is handling cases or ammo a DQ offense.

[ima45dv8]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

Down isn't a safe direction if you draw your pistol while facing uprange.

Then please explain how you can even start a match since the gun is loaded and holstered and pointed at the ground. Do you DQ everyone at the match?

The point being made was down is not a safe direction if the competitor is facing uprange when they draw.

And while I'm at it how is handling cases or ammo a DQ offense.

Handling ammunition in a safe area is a DQ offence. Handling boxes or bags with ammo in them is not.

Loaded magazines or loose rounds should never be handled in a safety area as the degree of separation between that act and a loaded gun is one action. Place the magazine or round in the gun -- one action.

If however the ammo is in a box or bag it takes multiple actions to load the gun (multiple degrees of separation). If for instance you had ammo on top of the tools you need in your range bag, you could remove those boxes and stack them on the table as long as they do not get opened.

[West Texas Granny]

Nope.

2.4.1 says nothing about 180.

My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction.

Down isn't a safe direction if you draw your pistol while facing uprange.

Then please explain how you can even start a match since the gun is loaded and holstered and pointed at the ground. Do you DQ everyone at the match?

The point being made was down is not a safe direction if the competitor is facing uprange when they draw.

And while I'm at it how is handling cases or ammo a DQ offense.

Handling ammunition in a safe area is a DQ offence. Handling boxes or bags with ammo in them is not.

Loaded magazines or loose rounds should never be handled in a safety area as the degree of separation between that act and a loaded gun is one action. Place the magazine or round in the gun -- one action.

If however the ammo is in a box or bag it takes multiple actions to load the gun (multiple degrees of separation). If for instance you had ammo on top of the tools you need in your range bag, you could remove those boxes and stack them on the table as long as they do not get opened.

But the gun is still pointed at the ground. Makes no difference if you are facing up range or down range. A holstered weapon is pointed at the ground and in most instances pointed at the ground behind the shooter.

Also when do you load your mags or moon clips and where are you allowed to put them on your belt. At that moment of loading up the belt you are that one action away thus in violation of the rules if the safe area is where you prepare. Also if sweeping yourself is a violation how does sweeping onset in a safe area ok.

From my stand point the rules look very confusing and where the rule says one action is ok you have another one that is the complete opposite. So what are the standards? Also how does one explain conflicting RO decisions.

I just need some direction. I want to shoot other matches other than my local ones but i'm holding back because I don't want to spend a lot of money on traveling,hotels,food and fees only to be DQ'ed for an acceptable practice at a local match. As I read this stuff on page 3 I'm lost as the rules seem to be in conflict with each other and thus decisions are left up to RO's or others discretion. If that happens then the rules are not clear.

[Nik Habicht]

WTG -- bottom line it's pretty simple. You may handle your gun in only two places:

1. In the safe Area/at the safe table. If the table isn't marked, if the area isn't roped off, if you're not certain of what to do, ask a member of the match staff.

2. On a stage, when it's your turn, under the supervision of the RO, after he says "Make Ready" and you're positive it's directed at you.

You may handle ammunition anywhere on the range except in the Safe Area/at the Safe Table. Period.

Still confused? Ask a member of the match staff -- they should be happy to walk you through it. If I could figure it out, you can too....

[Singlestack]

WTG,

Another thing, when reading rules debates on this forum, don't get too wrapped up in the semantics. A lot of times we are nit piking the rules to a ridiculous point as I was in this thread. Most of us doing that are old timers with nothing better to do and we enjoy the debate.

[Poppa Bear]

A lot depends on who the RO is also. Several years ago when I was new to the sport, I shot at a match a couple of hours away at a range that I was not familiar with. My holster was not positioned properly for the RO so he said "Go back to the safety table and correct it". At the back of this bay was a table facing the berm so I went back, unholsterd, moved my holster and proceeded to gun up again. Just as I finished the RO came up and said "This is not a safety table". He admitted that it could be confusing having the table right against the berm, and he also admitted that he said to go back to the table. Being as I was a new shooter who had not shot there before he let it go being as I followed all of the correct rules and precautions for using a safety table. He also informed me of exactly where ALL of the safety tables were for that range.

[Jim Norman]

Signs, Signs, Everywhere Signs, Pointin out the Safe Tables, let there be Signs.

Hey you could writer a song...

Seriously, no sign, not a safe area. A simple target and a marker, we aren't talking million dollar signs here

[Erik S.]

Guess we need a written rule for everything.

Rule 900.2.1: Shooters are allowed to consume beverages between turns

2.2: To drink, shooters must raise cup/bottle to lips and tilt head back.

2.3: It is shooters option to swallow aforementioned beverage.

Bottom line. Don't point guns at other people or yourself whether they are loaded or not. I do like these rules discussions, though

[sperman]

One of the ranges I shoot at doesn't have designated safe areas. The safe area is "the back of your vehicle."