9.4.2, Scoring area of a No Shoot?

[Wild Gene]

Rule 9.4.2, Each visible hit on the scoring area of a paper no-shoot......

Does that mean "within the outer perforations", or is a nick, outside the outer perforations considered a hit on a no-shoot?

Thank you,

WG

[JAFO]

It has to break the perforation (or be wholly inside them) to count.

Edited March 24, 2011 by JAFO

[Sarge]

Technically it does not have to "break" the perf it only has to "touch" the perf. The same is true for all perfs. Believe it or not there is a pretty big difference in touching and breaking sometimes.

[whitedog]

My understanding is it has to touch the perf. Same on all zones on the target. That's why they have overlays.

[Gary Johnson]

If it would be judged as a hit on a scoring target then it's a hit on a penalty target.

Rule 9.4.2, Each visible hit on the scoring area of a paper no-shoot......

Does that mean "within the outer perforations", or is a nick, outside the outer perforations considered a hit on a no-shoot?

Thank you,

WG

[mactiger]

Rule 9.4.2, Each visible hit on the scoring area of a paper no-shoot......

Does that mean "within the outer perforations", or is a nick, outside the outer perforations considered a hit on a no-shoot?

Thank you,

WG

The outer, non-scoring border does not count for hits on no-shoots or scoring targets. If the hit touches the perf, it counts. If it's inside the boundaries of the non-scoring border, it counts.

Troy

[JAFO]

Technically it does not have to "break" the perf it only has to "touch" the perf. The same is true for all perfs. Believe it or not there is a pretty big difference in touching and breaking sometimes.

Sorry, I misspoke.

[Sarge]

I only mentioned it because I said "break" all the time. I got corrected enough times that it finally sunk in.

[sfchorn]

Slight drift (but not much)

There is one critical thing to be aware of when targets (no-shoot or scoring) overlay other targets (again, no-shoot or scoring):

9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of USPSA scoring targets and noshoots is deemed to be impenetrable

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

How does this come into play? I've most often seen it when a no-shoot partially covers a scoring target. A competitor will hit the no-shoot such that the bullet touches the perf of the no-shoot. It is obviously a penalty, but the competitor tries to also get the hit on the scoring target underneath by saying "it touched the perf."

In this case, since the area directly under the perf is unavailable (since the perf is impenetrable), the bullet would actually have to break the perf of the no-shoot to count on the scoring target underneath.

Difficult concept for some to get, since we've all been told the bullet only has to touch the perf to get the higher scoring call.

The official NROI ruling that supports this can be found at: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=37

[Skydiver]

You are talking about case #4 here, right:

I love this diagram. It should be in the regular rulebook, and not just the CRO course material.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Skydiver

[Wild Gene]

Great diagram! In the rule book in that section there is the part about when something touches hard cover on the edge, and scores then you get the points or something like that, correct? I don't know, there are a few sections in there that are supposed to be different, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what the difference is!

Anyway, the more I shoot this game, the more I need to learn the rules. Last week, I got a miss, no shoot and FTE on the same shot??? Pretty much think I got screwed there!

Thanks guys. I think I am going to need to take the RO class, for my own good.

WG

[Nik Habicht]

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

The perf is kind of like a target stick -- it delineates the border between scoring and nonscoring. If you have a shoot target with a no-shoot stapled to it, and the bullet hits the scoring area of the target and the border of the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores a hit only. If it touches the perf, coming in from the outside it scores both the hit and the no-shoot.

If the hit is to the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores the no-shoot only. If it touches the perf, it scores both the no-shoot and the scoring area of the target adjacent to/under the perf.....

[Sarge]

I was trying to think of a way to say that. Well put.

[Wild Gene]

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

The perf is kind of like a target stick -- it delineates the border between scoring and nonscoring. If you have a shoot target with a no-shoot stapled to it, and the bullet hits the scoring area of the target and the border of the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores a hit only. If it touches the perf, coming in from the outside it scores both the hit and the no-shoot.

If the hit is to the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores the no-shoot only. If it touches the perf, it scores both the no-shoot and the scoring area of the target adjacent to/under the perf.....

Perfect!

[sfchorn]

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

The perf is kind of like a target stick -- it delineates the border between scoring and nonscoring. If you have a shoot target with a no-shoot stapled to it, and the bullet hits the scoring area of the target and the border of the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores a hit only. If it touches the perf, coming in from the outside it scores both the hit and the no-shoot.

If the hit is to the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores the no-shoot only. If it touches the perf, it scores both the no-shoot and the scoring area of the target adjacent to/under the perf.....

I have to respectfully disagree. The perf is NOT like a target stick. As far as scoring is concerned, the target stick does not exist. It counts for nothing if hit, and a shot that passes through the stick (wholly or partially, doesn't matter) will count for score or penalty if it hits a target after passing through the stick. (9.1.7)

The perf IS a scoring area. As such, it is impenetrable. That makes your last sentance incorrect. A hit on a no-shoot that only touches the inside part of the perf would only get the penalty. It would NOT get the hit on the target underneath, since only the portion of the scoring target under the no-shoot's non-scoring border and beyond would be available.

This is an area that bedevils many people.

[Lewiston]

Like all targets, only has to touch the perf.

[Singlestack]

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

The perf is kind of like a target stick -- it delineates the border between scoring and nonscoring. If you have a shoot target with a no-shoot stapled to it, and the bullet hits the scoring area of the target and the border of the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores a hit only. If it touches the perf, coming in from the outside it scores both the hit and the no-shoot.

If the hit is to the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores the no-shoot only. If it touches the perf, it scores both the no-shoot and the scoring area of the target adjacent to/under the perf.....

I have to respectfully disagree. The perf is NOT like a target stick. As far as scoring is concerned, the target stick does not exist. It counts for nothing if hit, and a shot that passes through the stick (wholly or partially, doesn't matter) will count for score or penalty if it hits a target after passing through the stick. (9.1.7)

The perf IS a scoring area. As such, it is impenetrable. That makes your last sentance incorrect. A hit on a no-shoot that only touches the inside part of the perf would only get the penalty. It would NOT get the hit on the target underneath, since only the portion of the scoring target under the no-shoot's non-scoring border and beyond would be available.

This is an area that bedevils many people.

This is an area that bedevils many people.

I believe you to be one...

See example #4 in post #10.

[aztecdriver]

The perf IS a scoring area. As such, it is impenetrable. That makes your last sentance incorrect. A hit on a no-shoot that only touches the inside part of the perf would only get the penalty. It would NOT get the hit on the target underneath, since only the portion of the scoring target under the no-shoot's non-scoring border and beyond would be available.

This is an area that bedevils many people.

Actually, I believe you to be incorrect. The perforation delineates scoring areas and is not a scoring area itself. All that is necessary to score the area behind is to touch the perforation. It would be an impossible scoring challenge to determine if a hit merely touched the line, or completely broke the line. Look at the answer for #4 - it states it scores A NS. This is the correct scoring.

The ruling that you quoted, specifically deals with hits such as #3, where the hit traveled through and also broke the A/C line on the scoring target, but because the perforations between the no shoot and the target were 1) directly lined up and 2) the noshoot is directly fixed to the scoring target, the scoring hit on the target behind is scored a C, vs the A because the A-zone in that particular area is removed by the overlap.

[aztecdriver]

You are talking about case #4 here, right:

I love this diagram. It should be in the regular rulebook, and not just the CRO course material.

It was handed out at our RO class - and I believe that those answers listed with the diagram are the correct ones. It is handy reference.

[Wild Gene]

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

The perf is kind of like a target stick -- it delineates the border between scoring and nonscoring. If you have a shoot target with a no-shoot stapled to it, and the bullet hits the scoring area of the target and the border of the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores a hit only. If it touches the perf, coming in from the outside it scores both the hit and the no-shoot.

If the hit is to the no-shoot without touching the perf, it scores the no-shoot only. If it touches the perf, it scores both the no-shoot and the scoring area of the target adjacent to/under the perf.....

I have to respectfully disagree. The perf is NOT like a target stick. As far as scoring is concerned, the target stick does not exist. It counts for nothing if hit, and a shot that passes through the stick (wholly or partially, doesn't matter) will count for score or penalty if it hits a target after passing through the stick. (9.1.7)

The perf IS a scoring area. As such, it is impenetrable. That makes your last sentance incorrect. A hit on a no-shoot that only touches the inside part of the perf would only get the penalty. It would NOT get the hit on the target underneath, since only the portion of the scoring target under the no-shoot's non-scoring border and beyond would be available.

This is an area that bedevils many people.

More like a small stick, because the hit on a stick, and subsequent scoring depends on which side the bullet comes from doesn't it?

The whole glancing shot thing, types of cover and when penetrable is or isn't deal. I'll go see what section that is, but sure someone else will know.

Biggest problem with most rules are the following exceptions that we all fail to read.

WG

[High Lord Gomer]

Slight drift (but not much)

There is one critical thing to be aware of when targets (no-shoot or scoring) overlay other targets (again, no-shoot or scoring):

9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of USPSA scoring targets and noshoots is deemed to be impenetrable

This includes the perf, since it is part of the scoring area.

How does this come into play? I've most often seen it when a no-shoot partially covers a scoring target. A competitor will hit the no-shoot such that the bullet touches the perf of the no-shoot. It is obviously a penalty, but the competitor tries to also get the hit on the scoring target underneath by saying "it touched the perf."

In this case, since the area directly under the perf is unavailable (since the perf is impenetrable), the bullet would actually have to break the perf of the no-shoot to count on the scoring target underneath.

Difficult concept for some to get, since we've all been told the bullet only has to touch the perf to get the higher scoring call.

The official NROI ruling that supports this can be found at: http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=37

That ruling addresses the shots 1, 3, 6, and 8 in the graphic that Ken posted. It doesn't say anything about the difference between touching and breaking, but rather that if a scoring area iscovered with a NS such that the perfs align , the area under the NS is not available. That is why 1 and 8 do not get any positive score and why 3 and 6 scored C's rather than A's (in addition to the obvious NS that each shot also got).

[Fireant]

NOOOOO, flash backs to the last Tulsa Open Nationals, I know that thread is here somewhere.

[Skydiver]

NOOOOO, flash backs to the last Tulsa Open Nationals, I know that thread is here somewhere.

Do the flashbacks include mud?

[sfchorn]

More like a small stick, because the hit on a stick, and subsequent scoring depends on which side the bullet comes from doesn't it?

The whole glancing shot thing, types of cover and when penetrable is or isn't deal. I'll go see what section that is, but sure someone else will know.

Biggest problem with most rules are the following exceptions that we all fail to read.

WG

Ummm....I would have to say the direction the shot comes from has nothing to do with the stick, small or not.

9.1.7 Target sticks are neither Hard Cover nor Soft Cover. Shots which have passed wholly or partially through target sticks and which hit a paper or metal target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

This pretty clearly says the stick has no influence on scoring

9.5.8 Hits visible on a scoring paper target or no-shoot, which are the result of shots fired through the rear of the target or no-shoot, will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.5.2 If the bullet diameter of a hit on a scoring target touches the scoring line between two scoring areas, or the line between the non-scoring border and a scoring area, or if it crosses multiple scoring areas, it will be scored the higher value.

9.5.3 If a bullet diameter touches the scoring area of both a scoring target and a no-shoot, it will earn the score and incur the penalty.

None of the above rules have any type of disclaimer about passing through a stick. The stick simply holds up targets. Nothing more, nothing less.

I suppose you could argue the following rule:

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.

But to me 9.1.7 supersedes 9.5.5, since it specifically addresses target sticks and the results should a bullet pass through one.

I believe you to be one...

See example #4 in post #10.

I would love to see a larger version of the target handout from the RO class. From the attachment in Azrecdriver's post, you can't tell what has touched or broken a perf on the overlaying no-shoot. I've tried to blow it up, but the resolution just isn't there. Too fuzzy to make out anything.

I asked this specific question of John Amidon last year, and I’ve included my question and his reply below. He specifically uses the phrase "....would have to break the perf...." (Italics mine).

Hi Jim,

Yes, that would correct, in order for that hit on the no shoot to count on the under target, would have to break the perf where it would be into the non scoring border, then the hit on the under target would score.

John

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:49 PM

To: dnroi@uspsa.org

Subject: Fwd: Perforation Question

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Perforation Question

I have a question about the NROI ruling below

NROI Rulings

Title: Scoring targets with hard cover or noshoots overlaping (attached)

Created: 9/19/08

Updated: 10/16/08

Effective: 10/23/08

Rule number: 9.1.5/9.5.2

Applies to: General

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

Target array is a no-shoot over a scoring target. The top of the NS head directly covers the bottom half of the lower A zone, with the lateral non-scoring lines of the NS *directly* over the A/C zone scoring lines of the scoring target. How is this scored?

Ruling

In accordance with Rule 9.1.5, the scoring areas of scoring targets and no-shoots are impenetrable. Whenever two targets (scoring and/or no-shoots) are in direct contact where one target directly overlaps part of another target, the area of the "under" target which is directly covered by the scoring area of the "over" target and its perforations is deemed to be non-existent. Additionally, Rule 9.5.2 is clarified to apply only to the visible portions of targets. It specifically does not apply to any area of any target which is in direct contact with and overlapped by the scoring area of another target (scoring and/or no-shoots) or by hardcover.

Using the scenario above, a hit entirely on the head of the NS which touches, but does not break/extend beyond the perforation of the NS, does NOT count for score (is a miss) on the "under target". Since the perforation of the NS is impenetrable, the hit cannot touch the under target. It would be scored a NS and a miss.

Is this correct or am I in error?

Thanks in advance for your help!

I'm not trying to be hard-headed (although my wife might disagree) - I'm just trying to apply what I (in good faith) believe to be correct. If Troy, Gary, or one of the other NROI instructors can correct me, I'd be happy to apply the rule according to their guidance. Please don't take offense at my asking for an opinion from one of those folks. As you can see by this thread, it's possible for some well-intentioned folks to have different viewpoints.

One thing is for sure - after reading posts in this forum, I've found out I don't know nearly as much as I thought I did!

[LT45]

Here's a chart I made a while back. The resolution is much better.

I hope this helps.