GorillaTactical Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I've been going over some video and watching some of my shooting and I came up with this set of questions.... At a match, I was shooting a stage where I lost a spare mag at the beginning of the stage. I proceed down the COF and when I reach the end I realized I'd run out of ammo with a few targets left standing. I turn around and see my mag lying about 50 yards behind me...now, at the time I took the penalty for the few misses without going back and getting the mag for several reasons (such as safety of the RO who was considerably a slower mover than me and that I honestly didn't know how this would be ruled). the COF was VERY wide and I could have easily returned to pick up the mag then advance forward and engage again...but I undoubtedly would have had to have stopped, told the RO I was backing up (so he could get a head start so as not to muzzle him), and then run back. Question is: If I had stopped to inform the RO that he was "in my way" is that deemed grounds for a reshoot? Also, if I just ran back to get it (if the muzzle was in another direction but the RO was still in front of my 180) is that a DQ? a reshoot? Finally, if I had returned to the magazine and the RO was in front of me and I had to pause so he could clear the 180 before I loaded and proceeded forward, is that grounds for a reshoot? I'm just trying to figure this out to see what the best course of action would have been on my part (AND YES, NOT LOSING THE MAG IN THE FIRST PLACE IS MY GOAL IN THE FUTURE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) If I need to go back up range for some reason (I did it at the 3 gun nation championship in Vegas and there was a camera crew besides the ROs, that was quite a scramble!) I make sure to yell "coming back" and then proceed as fast and as safely as I can. If the RO gets out of position and I have to stop I would request a reshoot. You probably would not have been better off going back for the mag it takes too long to retreat that far. Doug Edited March 23, 2011 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) You probably would not have been better off going back for the mag it takes too long to retreat that far. 2 Steel misses + 2 failure to engage = 30 seconds (time plus scoring) .....I'm a young guy haha.....but even so, (I know this is SERIOUSSSSS gaming) if you can get a reshoot out of it, then might as well try it at least so long as it is legal and SAFE! Edited March 23, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Juice? Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) If you give fair warning to the RO such as 'going back' it is up to the RO to get out of the way. If you come into contact with the RO, then it is grounds for a re-shoot. There is a provision in the rules for this, if you want I can look up the actual number. So long as you don't break 90 and get 10-6'd that is Edited March 23, 2011 by Got Juice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 What rules did this match use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I've wondered this myself so thanks for posting! In the shooting lane type courses this can be especially bad since the ro's usually behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfchorn Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 As an RO, the responsibility to stay out of the competitor's way is mine. If I get out of position and interfere with your run, I will pony up and admit it. If I screw up so badly I am just about to end up downrange of the shooter, I will call stop. I appreciate (but don't expect, and certainly can't require) a head's up from a competitor that they are about to do something unexpected. If a competitor is having a bad run and uses an unexpected retreat to try to get a reshoot? Regardless of how you may feel about it personally, it's still my responsibility to stay out of his way. It's a freestyle sport. As a competitor, I will stop myself before I get uprange of an RO. I'd rather have to reshoot (or even zero a stage) than potentially put someone at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 What rules did this match use? Yeah, that's always the first question to ask. This match has these rules, that match has those rules. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 If a competitor is having a bad run and uses an unexpected retreat to try to get a reshoot? Regardless of how you may feel about it personally, it's still my responsibility to stay out of his way. It's a freestyle sport. . This is my point, it sounds extremely unfair...and what is to keep someone from running back just for the hell of it to try and get a reshoot? I'm all about gaming the stage but just from an RO's perspective, if a shooter kept doing this to try and get reshoots, then I'd get very pissed very fast MATCH WAS USING IMGA, but this is a general question, not match specific (so how is it ruled in USPSA, IMGA, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 An experienced RO will stay out of your way...if you're interfered with, you get a reshoot after it has occured...but a quick heads up is always appreciated when you change the script at the last minute. I can move pretty fast, but I always give Max Michel Jr., Blake Miguez or the other track stars a little extra room 'cause they're way fleeter than me, in both mind and foot. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 As an RO you need to be aware of what the shooter is doing on the stage, if I saw the shooter drop something that he might need later, or skip some targets that he might want to come back and shoot, I'll be ready for a change of direction and probably ease up a little to give myself some space. Anticipation is key, especially with really fast shooters. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'd rather have a shooter clear and ground the rifle (setting it down deliberately isn't the same as dropping it IMHO) than have them running backwards that far with a rifle. Keeps the muzzle in a safe direction, the shooter isn't going to trip on something moving backwards, and the RO can easily stay out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Juice? Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 IPSC. Use Rule # 8.6.3 regarding reshoot from contact. Use Rule # 5.5.3 for dropped mags and you can make provisions for 8.2.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Well stated sfchorn, You post toes the line with the conclusions I would make. As for gaming a stage I think we can all, most of us, agree that running back to get a reshoot would be cheating, not gaming. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Russell, exactly why I asked what rules were in use. Some matches are more about safe actions and unsafe actions rather than completing a course of fire within the confines of a set of rules. I don't think anyone could argue that an unloaded rifle laying on the ground pointing down range is an unsafe condition. The shooter running back to pick up a magazine while his rifle is unloaded lying on the ground is not putting the RO in a dangerous position, even if the RO stays with the rifle downrange (which is what I would do). It's all about the rules... I agree w/ you Jay, if a shooter intentionally tried to force a re-shoot due to something similar to this, it's cheating. Not all match directors would grant the re-shoot either, depending on the circumstances. Edited March 23, 2011 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 As for gaming a stage I think we can all, most of us, agree that running back to get a reshoot would be cheating, not gaming. If the reason someone retreats is to force a reshoot then yes....if they retreat to engage targets they missed or pick up a mag (like in my case) and the RO makes you lose time, then is that the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Too many what-ifs. Like Doug said, the RO has to be paying attention to what is going on, not just watching for a finger in the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 ..if they retreat to engage targets they missed or pick up a mag (like in my case) and the RO makes you lose time If RO interference due to the above circumstances, then I would vote reshoot. Anything else.....don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewiston Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 As an RO, the responsibility to stay out of the competitor's way is mine. If I get out of position and interfere with your run, I will pony up and admit it. If I screw up so badly I am just about to end up downrange of the shooter, I will call stop. I appreciate (but don't expect, and certainly can't require) a head's up from a competitor that they are about to do something unexpected. If a competitor is having a bad run and uses an unexpected retreat to try to get a reshoot? Regardless of how you may feel about it personally, it's still my responsibility to stay out of his way. It's a freestyle sport. As a competitor, I will stop myself before I get uprange of an RO. I'd rather have to reshoot (or even zero a stage) than potentially put someone at risk. Agree 100%. As an RO it's my job to not interfere with the competitor and be prepared for the unexpected. I've had competitors say they were going a certain direction only the do the opposite once the timer sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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