Are suppressors allowed for Limited or L-10?

[Skydiver]

Are suppressors allowed for Limited or Limited 10 divisions?

I'm asking because it may finally become legal to use the suppressors that we've been legally allowed to own, assuming a WA state bill passes.

Personally, I think that it's not allowed for these divisions, but what rule(s) do I point to as my basis?

The current rule book only says that compensators are not allowed for all divisions except Open.

Doing a search for "suppressor" in this subforum, I found this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14742&view=findpost&p=171314 that has the following Rules Committee interpretation:

Interpretation: In respect of Division appendices, the term "compensators" is deemed to include sound and/or flash suppressors of all kinds.

That thread was from 2004, and I couldn't find the text actually making it into the current 2008/2010 Blue book. What made it in was:

Compensator . . . . . . . . . . .A device fitted to the muzzle end of a barrel to counter muzzle rise (usually by externally diverting escaping gasses).

Additionally, the only ruling I can find on the USPSA website deals with flash hiders for the Rifle rules. So as far as I can tell, suppressors have not been officially ruled to be the same as a compensator. Did a I miss a ruling elsewhere?

So taking a different tack, I'm not so sure whether to apply Garrett's logic in the same thread above that suppressor would be disallowed because it is an external modification. My doubt comes in because of JA's clarification in this ruling where he clarifies that:

18. External modifications such as weights or devices to control or reduce recoil are specifically not allowed, such as but not limited to, thumb rest, extended slide stops, etc.

:

Now to address etc., no it does not mean you have to remove mag wells, they are legal, no you do not have to remove the beavertail, they are legal, no you do not have to remove your ambidextrous safety, they are legal, if they were not, they could have easily been outlawed under the current language of the 14th edition, they were not viewed as weights or devices to reduce mussel or recoil control.what etc. means is the screws some have put into their slides, that stick out and are being used as thumb rest, the glob that is welded to the frames that are being used as thumb rest.

Following the logic that although a magwell adds extra mass to a gun which helps reduce recoil, the primary purpose of the magwell is to make reloads easier, can a competitor point out that although a suppressor adds extra mass to a gun which helps reduce recoil and counter muzzle rise, the primary purpose is to make the gun quieter?

So unless there is a further NROI clarification or ruling stating that suppressors are "weights or devices to reduce mussel or recoil control (sic)", as best as I can tell, the next recourse would be to ask the Range Master under 6.2.5 to determine whether the shooter will be allowed to shoot in Limited/L-10 or in Open. Hopefully, there will be consistency across all the Range Masters in all events.

[diehli]

Next step is to ask Amidon if his interpretation still holds. I'd bet it does.

[JakeMartens]

no

[Skydiver]

no

Oh, I agree. I'm just confused as to which rule to quote.

[diehli]

no

Oh, I agree. I'm just confused as to which rule to quote.

Amidon's interpretation. It's like quoting a Supreme Court decision. It ain't in the US Code, but it's still law (-ish).

[Nik Habicht]

no

Oh, I agree. I'm just confused as to which rule to quote.

Amidon's interpretation. It's like quoting a Supreme Court decision. It ain't in the US Code, but it's still law (-ish).

Except Amidon's interpretation doesn't exist. It's not on the website with all the other interpretations....

[Jadeslade]

Well, the term legally is silencer. That is the term used by ATF, now BATFE, in the laws regarding silencers. They are legal where I live and in many states. It is a paperwork devil to move them across state lines. The term sound suppressor is used by manufacturers to ameliorate the effect on the non-aware general public. By the rule I see written they are not legal for Limited. They would be legal in open, but would they help? I've used 22,9mm, 45, and 5.56 silencers. They make pistols too long and rifles too long, unless you are sniping, and they make carbines and short barreled rifles very excellent weapons. I am sure there are a few guys that have tried them in matches, but I am not sure they offer any advantage in competition.

[diehli]

no

Oh, I agree. I'm just confused as to which rule to quote.

Amidon's interpretation. It's like quoting a Supreme Court decision. It ain't in the US Code, but it's still law (-ish).

Except Amidon's interpretation doesn't exist. It's not on the website with all the other interpretations....

Ah. Well, there's that. I'm guessing his opinion still hasn't changed on the matter.

[Chuck Anderson]

Hanging a half pound weight on the end of your barrel is definitely not legal in L/L10. It definitely counters recoil and would be viewed as an external modification. Heck the little tiny extention on the Tru-Sight was nearly considered a muzzle weight. This thing definitely is.

Congratulations on getting cans legal in Washington. Unfortunately now I won't be able to point to you guys as having the most retarded silencer laws in the country. I wonder who's next on the list?

[D.Hayden]

Slightly off topic..

For 3 Gun:

There was a ruling I thought - that said suppressors weren't compensators, and could be used in Tactical.. even though they exceeded the 3" x 1" rule - anyone know for sure?

[Skydiver]

Slightly off topic..

For 3 Gun:

There was a ruling I thought - that said suppressors weren't compensators, and could be used in Tactical.. even though they exceeded the 3" x 1" rule - anyone know for sure?

Are you talking about the "flash hiders are not compensators" ruling for rifle? It's here: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=40

[Corey]

Slightly off topic..

For 3 Gun:

There was a ruling I thought - that said suppressors weren't compensators, and could be used in Tactical.. even though they exceeded the 3" x 1" rule - anyone know for sure?

I think it depends on what rules you are looking at. With Mulitgun not having a unified set of rules, some matches allow things another will not.

[Chuck Anderson]

Slightly off topic..

For 3 Gun:

There was a ruling I thought - that said suppressors weren't compensators, and could be used in Tactical.. even though they exceeded the 3" x 1" rule - anyone know for sure?

18. Legally-possessed sound-suppressors are allowed, are not considered compensators

and therefore are not subject to the size restrictions on compensators in Standard

and Tactical Rifle Divisions. Any suppressor which has functional characteristics

which serve to reduce muzzle-flip and/or felt recoil (e.g., externally-visible baffles

or ports) will be considered a compensator.

It's no longer a ruling, it was added to the rule book a few years ago. Look in the appendices under the Division rules.

This is different than the rules for Limited pistols however. The compensator rules is specifically that, comps. The Lim/L10 rules refer to external mods.

[D.Hayden]

Slightly off topic..

For 3 Gun:

There was a ruling I thought - that said suppressors weren't compensators, and could be used in Tactical.. even though they exceeded the 3" x 1" rule - anyone know for sure?

18. Legally-possessed sound-suppressors are allowed, are not considered compensators

and therefore are not subject to the size restrictions on compensators in Standard

and Tactical Rifle Divisions. Any suppressor which has functional characteristics

which serve to reduce muzzle-flip and/or felt recoil (e.g., externally-visible baffles

or ports) will be considered a compensator.

It's no longer a ruling, it was added to the rule book a few years ago. Look in the appendices under the Division rules.

This is different than the rules for Limited pistols however. The compensator rules is specifically that, comps. The Lim/L10 rules refer to external mods.

Chuck - right, I only meant for rifle - thanks for the reference.. exactly what I was looking for

[Skydiver]

Hanging a half pound weight on the end of your barrel is definitely not legal in L/L10. It definitely counters recoil and would be viewed as an external modification. Heck the little tiny extention on the Tru-Sight was nearly considered a muzzle weight. This thing definitely is.

Congratulations on getting cans legal in Washington. Unfortunately now I won't be able to point to you guys as having the most retarded silencer laws in the country. I wonder who's next on the list?

Thanks. I'll use note that it's not legal due to it being an external modification.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to understand: why is an magwell that flares several inches below and around the butt of a gun not an external modification? Simply due to the NROI clarification that stated them as legal?

I find it hard to say that slide cuts are not external modification, but they seem perfectly legal (and popular). Ostensibly, people say this lets the slide cycle faster and reduces muzzle flip.

I'm trying to understand what the parameters of what would be a legal external modification versus an illegal one?

Edited March 17, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Hanging a half pound weight on the end of your barrel is definitely not legal in L/L10. It definitely counters recoil and would be viewed as an external modification. Heck the little tiny extention on the Tru-Sight was nearly considered a muzzle weight. This thing definitely is.

Congratulations on getting cans legal in Washington. Unfortunately now I won't be able to point to you guys as having the most retarded silencer laws in the country. I wonder who's next on the list?

Thanks. I'll use note that it's not legal due to it being an external modification.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to understand: why is an magwell that flares several inches below and around the butt of a gun not an external modification? Simply due to the NROI clarification that stated them as legal?

I find it hard to say that slide cuts are not external modification, but they seem perfectly legal (and popular). Ostensibly, people say this lets the slide cycle faster and reduces muzzle flip.

I'm trying to understand what the parameters of what would be a legal external modification versus an illegal one?

Nevermind the question about the slide cuts, I keep on forgetting that slide ports are legal for Limited.

[diehli]

I'm trying to understand what the parameters of what would be a legal external modification versus an illegal one?

Whatever Amidon says. Seriously.

[JAFO]

I'm trying to understand what the parameters of what would be a legal external modification versus an illegal one?

I'd guess it's the "...to control or reduce recoil..." part.

Appendix D2

22

Prohibited modifications

External modifications or features such as weights or devices to control or reduce recoil (such as but not limited to thumb rests or components which could be used as such).

[Walküre]

It is a paperwork devil to move them across state lines.

5320.20's aren't required for silencers. BATFE will still approve them, but you don't actually need one. They're only required for SBRs, SBSs, MGs, and DDs. Legally owned AOWs and silencers can move freely between any states that permit it.

And I don't know that I'd call dealing with 5320.20's "a paperwork devil".

[Jadeslade]

You sir are correct. Just wanting to point out need for good paperwork when you travel.

[carharttfarmer]

I it a great addition to my 45 for man on man and fun matchs to bad the gun gets super dirty and starts jammin after about 75rnds and the length /wieght makes reloads wierd

[hankfan79]

I have yet to hear one SILENCE a centerfire cartridge.

"Suppress" the sound of one? Yeah

[JFlowers]

Wouldn't the amount of shooting we do be rough on a suppressor? Or has the technology progress to the point where their lifespan is more robust?

[lmccrock]

Wouldn't the amount of shooting we do be rough on a suppressor? Or has the technology progress to the point where their lifespan is more robust?

First, the technology has advanced and they will survive lots of rounds.

My only experience RO-ing a suppressed gun was not a good one for the RO. The timer barely picked up the sound and I had to get close. When the shooter stuck the muzzle through a port, no shots were picked up. Not a USPSA match, but still tricky. I bumped into the shooter trying to get the timer where it would trigger, so he got a reshoot. Still not sure if all the shots registered. Hard to hold the timer where it picks up shots, watch the display, and the shooter. BTW - it was a night match. If allowed a vote, I would say "no suppressors because the timer might not pick it up".

Lee

[Garrett]

So taking a different tack, I'm not so sure whether to apply Garrett's logic in the same thread above that suppressor would be disallowed because it is an external modification...

I was about to comment. But then I see that I already did, a few years ago...

I'll add this, then: As noted in the other post, pistols with a Browning-type short-recoil action need some kind of booster to get the gun to cycle with the added weight hanging on the end of the barrel. This makes for a strange-feeling recoil impulse. There is a club that shoots a 2-stage match at an indoor range in Kansas City every Friday night. Since there is only room for two stages, they will let you shoot multiple runs. I've run the match with pistol-caliber carbines, subguns, suppressed pistols, etc.

The 2-stage recoil impulse from shooting a boostered silencer isn't all that noticeable until you shoot a traditional comped race gun, and immediately switch to the suppressed gun. Very weird feeling. And more to the point, much slower for our sport. It's not going to make you more competitive. Less competitive is more likely. But it's still kind of fun. That's been a good enough reason for a bunch of stuff that I've tried (I put a silencer on a Desert Eagle .44, for example. Because I could! )

If I still lived in KC so I could shoot that match regularly, I'd get a timer set up for airsoft, so it could more easily pick up the suppressed shots.

BTW, a number of the minimalist race-holsters will work well with a suppressed gun.