aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 That I will clearly disagree with. We use...and always have...words like "only" and "then" for a reason...to make sure it is clear what the stage designer truly wants. It is on the stage designer to make this clear. And, those word are the proper tools to do so. They mean something, as does their omission. (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) I knew this thread was going to start discussion again on this topic, and I posted it full-well knowing we would get into this. I wanted to have this discussion because it occurred at a match, several well experienced people that have and are contributing to the discussion participated at the match, we've got a scenario to look at and the stage to be clear about without guessing as to the setup or description. I think your gaming technique would be good to hear - I might disagree with it, but that's truly why we have redress available through arbitration. We have words available as tools, but the specific words don't HAVE to be the way you want to see them and still be legal binding. This SPECIFIC example has distinct difference in how I believe you and others look at it. I'm a programmer, so let me substitute X and Y for paper/steel - which ever is relevant for whatever shooter: ... engage X targets, perform a mandatory reload & engage Y targets. I'm shooting X targets, and I run dry, for the moment, it's irrelevant whether I engaged ALL of the X targets, just know 1 X target is standing. I reload and engage X target. At this point, have I performed a mandatory reload. If I did I *should* have engaged a Y target following it because the step following the , is one clause together. "PERFORM SOMETHING AND ENGAGE". My argument is that the reload performed wasn't the one that was stipulated as mandatory, otherwise engagement of Y should have followed. Here is where I *might* tend to agree with you: ... engage X targets, perform a mandatory reload, engage Y targets. These are delineated with "," and separated. I can say that the original situation, had the above been the procedure, I would give credence to the argument. Did I engage X targets - I did. Did I engage Y targets - I did. Did I perform a mandatory reload - I did. I would even stipulate this would suffice to my last example: ... engage X targets, perform a mandatory reload, and engage Y targets. If the value of the word THEN adds the ability to stipulate order - then the word AND has the ability to combine actions into one task. My interpretation of the procedure has nothing to do with the intent of the designer, and actually has no interpretation as to precedence as to the language requirements for a stage build that have not been documented anywhere to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I have to agree with Flex and Nik, if I understand what happened. IF the competitor shot at least once at each piece of steel prior to making his reload, regardless of whether he knocked them down or not, he has satisfied the first part of the stage procedure, i.e., he has engaged each steel target. He then makes a reload, satisfying the second part of the stage procedure, and (even though he does shoot at and knock down a piece of steel) engages the paper targets. If that's the case, then no penalties. The competitor satisfied the course requirements by engaging each steel, reloading and engaging the paper. There aren't enough sequential terms, such as "then", "only", etc., to enforce the penalty, and since it's Comstock, you can shoot all you want. There also isn't a requirement here to make reloads between arrays, just to make a reload after engaging all the targets in one. Nothing said they had to be down, and that requirement would, in fact, be against the rules as well. We don't require hits on paper, or steel to fall, for a target to be engaged, it merely has to be shot at once. If this isn't what happened, then I wish someone would post exactly what did, and clear things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 I have to agree with Flex and Nik, if I understand what happened. IF the competitor shot at least once at each piece of steel prior to making his reload, regardless of whether he knocked them down or not, he has satisfied the first part of the stage procedure, i.e., he has engaged each steel target. He then makes a reload, satisfying the second part of the stage procedure, and (even though he does shoot at and knock down a piece of steel) engages the paper targets. If that's the case, then no penalties. The competitor satisfied the course requirements by engaging each steel, reloading and engaging the paper. There aren't enough sequential terms, such as "then", "only", etc., to enforce the penalty, and since it's Comstock, you can shoot all you want. There also isn't a requirement here to make reloads between arrays, just to make a reload after engaging all the targets in one. Nothing said they had to be down, and that requirement would, in fact, be against the rules as well. We don't require hits on paper, or steel to fall, for a target to be engaged, it merely has to be shot at once. If this isn't what happened, then I wish someone would post exactly what did, and clear things up. The original specific example did not engage the last plate before needing more ammunition in the gun. He ran dry just as he hit the 5th plate on the 6 plate rack, so he had not yet engaged the last plate. I did however, want the clarification provided. So if EACH target had been engaged at least once before the reload, knock down the last plate and continue, no procedurals. If not all of the steel had been engaged once, they would need to do ANOTHER reload before moving on to paper or incur 8 procedurals. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 How did we determine he did not engage the last plate? Did he fire at least 8 rounds at the 8 steels? That would be a tough call for me to determine as an RO, did he engage or just miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Reading the WSB I see that the shooter must engage the paper, do a reload and engage the steel. Nothing tells me in what order the shooter must do these things. They just have to be done after the buzzer and before if finished ULSC. If I were shooting limited or open I would shoot everything left to right then reload off the clock while the RO was trying to count how many procedurals they thought I should have. I have fullfilled the requirements as written. Now I know what the designer intended, but we do not factor in intent to this game. No procedurals here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Reading the WSB I see that the shooter must engage the paper, do a reload and engage the steel. Nothing tells me in what order the shooter must do these things. They just have to be done after the buzzer and before if finished ULSC. If I were shooting limited or open I would shoot everything left to right then reload off the clock while the RO was trying to count how many procedurals they thought I should have. I have fullfilled the requirements as written. Now I know what the designer intended, but we do not factor in intent to this game. No procedurals here. That's mean. I agree - "and" is not sequential in English, "then" is. Apples AND Oranges = Oranges AND Apples Apples THEN Oranges =/= Oranges THEN Apples I shot the stage as it was intended to be shot but what Fireant said isn't logically false. Edited March 15, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away. Shoot everything, reload off the clock. Nope, you must reload between arrays. Where does the WSB specify that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 ... engage X targets, perform a mandatory reload & engage Y targets. Can you see where nothing there requires a chronological order? It's really just a list that needs checked off. Say you and a buddy are going to drive to the Area 5 match. He offers to drive his car. You offer to take the day before to prep for the trip. You ask him what needs done. He says - Go to the grocery and buy supplies for the trip. - Fill the tank with gas. - Get the oil changed and the tires rotated. Those are just generally requirements. It doesn't matter if you get the oil changed before topping off the gas. As opposed to... - Drop off the car for the appointment for oil and tires at 8am, then - Hit the grocery (the Deli manager said the sandwiches would be ready), then - Fill the gas tank at the grocery's gas station (the grocery supplies being enough to kick the gas discount to $1.50/gal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Bottom line is, the stage could (and should) be better written...especially when you are getting away from freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 ... engage X targets, perform a mandatory reload & engage Y targets. Can you see where nothing there requires a chronological order? It's really just a list that needs checked off. Say you and a buddy are going to drive to the Area 5 match. He offers to drive his car. You offer to take the day before to prep for the trip. You ask him what needs done. He says - Go to the grocery and buy supplies for the trip. - Fill the tank with gas. - Get the oil changed and the tires rotated. Those are just generally requirements. It doesn't matter if you get the oil changed before topping off the gas. As opposed to... - Drop off the car for the appointment for oil and tires at 8am, then - Hit the grocery (the Deli manager said the sandwiches would be ready), then - Fill the gas tank at the grocery's gas station (the grocery supplies being enough to kick the gas discount to $1.50/gal) I disagree. The order is specified by the order of the words in the sentence. To use your example: Drive to Smyrna, pick me up & drive back home. You get that wrong I'm still going to be in Smyrna or you have a bunch of driving to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 If the shooter was running in Limited 6 division, if misses occurred on array A, he/she would have to reload to complete the Array A engagement...and a reload was still required before engaging Array B. I opt for 8 procedurals...IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I disagree. The order is specified by the order of the words in the sentence. To use your example: Drive to Smyrna, pick me up & drive back home. You get that wrong I'm still going to be in Smyrna or you have a bunch of driving to do. Nah, the order in your example isn't specific to the word order in the sentence. The key there is getting you in the car. ************************** I'm not looking to win an argument here. What I would like to see is a good take away from this discussion. Fundamental to that is... When you get away from freestyle, you really...really...need to be VERY specific in your WSB as to what you want the shooter to do. Key to that end is using the standard wording that has grown out of these similar instances that we have seen throughout the years. This really boils down to another example of stage designer intent vs. getting that intent clearly worded in the WSB. As stage designers, lets go the full mile on our end, so that the shooters can enjoy the experience more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I'm not looking to win an argument here. What I would like to see is a good take away from this discussion. Fundamental to that is... When you get away from freestyle, you really...really...need to be VERY specific in your WSB as to what you want the shooter to do. Key to that end is using the standard wording that has grown out of these similar instances that we have seen throughout the years. This really boils down to another example of stage designer intent vs. getting that intent clearly worded in the WSB. As stage designers, lets go the full mile on our end, so that the shooters can enjoy the experience more. You couldn't have said it any better Flex The real problem isn't when or if a reload was performed, but instead the WSB isn't clearly and properly worded with the stage designer's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I disagree. The order is specified by the order of the words in the sentence. To use your example: Drive to Smyrna, pick me up & drive back home. You get that wrong I'm still going to be in Smyrna or you have a bunch of driving to do. Nah, the order in your example isn't specific to the word order in the sentence. The key there is getting you in the car. Just as in the WSB, the key is getting a new mag in the gun at a specified place. I'm not trying to "win an argument" here either. It just seems very plain to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I disagree. The order is specified by the order of the words in the sentence. Then take the order of the words in the WSB for the stage in question. Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Engage paper, perform mandatory reload, engage steel. But you can also start with steel but it doesn't say that you have to reload to engage paper. The WSB doesn't list any order if you start with the steel and doesn't even mention a mandatory reload if you start with steel. So yes, you are correct, the order of words does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Just a small sample discussion from this weekend - want to see what people think the right call is: Stage consists of a box A, a plate rack straight away (backwall) with 6 plates and 2 MPP underneath it, on, the right birm and left birm there are two classics each, so 4 targets in the corners. Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Start is loaded and holstered. Situation: Shooter engages steel first shooting limited-10. Misses enough to leave 1 plate standing and an empty gun. Performs a mandatory reload, engages last plate, then shoots the 8 rounds at the paper targets. What's the proper call here? First, the Course description is poorly worded. The Stage Procedure contradicts itself and should have been caught by the MD prior to the course being attempted by any competitor. It says: "Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first." By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. He engaged the steel first, as afforded in the WSB, so no penalty there. He performed a mandatory reload and engaged steel, so no penalty there. Then he shot paper which is afforded in the WSB, so no penalty there. Technically, the stage should be thrown out. Barring that, no penalties should have been assessed. The shooter was posed with a problem in a WSB that had conflicting directions and he solved it in his own way, which is freestyle. The only "only" in the WSB is based on the start position, which he complied with. Complicated call, but the shooter should not have been penalized! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion? No more than one mandatory reload may be required in a speed shoot. So those who have said that you can't go back and clean-up without penalty are wrong. As long as there is a reload and then a steel target is engaged, no other restrictions can be applied. That is exactly what the shooter at issue did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 0 It doesn't say reload before you engage metal plates. One reload is one reload. Was this just a regular stage? Why put that in there anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! Really? It sure seems you're on the other side of the argument... and how come YOU didn't mention it for clarification? (I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.) I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away. Shoot everything, reload off the clock. Nope, you must reload between arrays. I disagree. The order is specified by the order of the words in the sentence. To use your example: Drive to Smyrna, pick me up & drive back home. You get that wrong I'm still going to be in Smyrna or you have a bunch of driving to do. Nah, the order in your example isn't specific to the word order in the sentence. The key there is getting you in the car. Just as in the WSB, the key is getting a new mag in the gun at a specified place. I'm not trying to "win an argument" here either. It just seems very plain to me. Edited March 15, 2011 by centermass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion? No more than one mandatory reload may be required in a speed shoot. So those who have said that you can't go back and clean-up without penalty are wrong. As long as there is a reload and then a steel target is engaged, no other restrictions can be applied. That is exactly what the shooter at issue did. Where are you getting "reload and then a steel target from"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I disagree. The order is specified by the order of the words in the sentence. To use your example: Drive to Smyrna, pick me up & drive back home. You get that wrong I'm still going to be in Smyrna or you have a bunch of driving to do. Nah, the order in your example isn't specific to the word order in the sentence. The key there is getting you in the car. Just as in the WSB, the key is getting a new mag in the gun at a specified place. I'm not trying to "win an argument" here either. It just seems very plain to me. It's not plain. That is the issue. You are demanding it be linear, but nobody knows what you want because you have not completely communicated it. I might have to leave from Ohio, pick you up in Georgia, and drive you to Florida. But, after picking you up, I may need to drive back to Ohio. Do I need to pick you up again? Do I need to pick you up every time I drive through Georgia? Once I have driven to Georgia once, haven't I completed the mandatory drive to Georgia? Once I have picked you up, haven't I completed the mandatory pick up? Once I have driven you to Florida, haven't I completed the mandatory drive to Florida? If it's Comstock, I am free to take the scenic route. If you want the express taxi service, you gotta specify that, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion? IMO, it does not. By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course. I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this! Really? It sure seems you're on the other side of the argument... and how come YOU didn't mention it for clarification? Because I did not want to cloud the issue we were discussing. The stage was named incorrectly as well. It should have been called a Speed Shoot. I am sure we can all agree on one thing. THIS STAGE WAS ALL f*#kED UP! way to go Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Where are you getting "reload and then a steel target from"? That is what the shooter did. I am NOT injecting an additional word, just saying what he did complied with the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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