mrwhite1 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Has anyone been following this on the Saiga-12 forum? Few of the threads http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62188 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62170 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62491&st=0 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=63038 Edited February 8, 2011 by mrwhite1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philg80 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 From what I can tell....NO, but other guns will not be allowed for importation due to non sporting features...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The gun community as a whole seriously lacks reading comprehension. Everything from posts on forums to GOA's and NRA's press releases about this have just been full of misinformation and conjecture. Saigas as is are fine. This BATF opinion letter is actually the most positive thing I have EVER seen out of BATF; they admit that sporting purposes can evolve over time, USPSA/3Gun could be a sporting purpose in the future, AND detach magazines are not inherently unsporting. ...instead somehow people are reading it as if BATF is "making new laws" and Saigas are going to be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waxman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Better buy one, just to be safe.-------- I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 BATF is "making new laws" and Saigas are going to be banned. Oh no! I better go buy a couple cause Russell says they are going to be banned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The gun community as a whole seriously lacks reading comprehension. Everything from posts on forums to GOA's and NRA's press releases about this have just been full of misinformation and conjecture. Saigas as is are fine. This BATF opinion letter is actually the most positive thing I have EVER seen out of BATF; they admit that sporting purposes can evolve over time, USPSA/3Gun could be a sporting purpose in the future, AND detach magazines are not inherently unsporting. ...instead somehow people are reading it as if BATF is "making new laws" and Saigas are going to be banned. With respect, you must be reading a different document than I've seen. the 34-page doc I've been reading documents a whole bunch of firearm features which the ATF considers "not particularly suitable or readily adaptable for sporting purposes". Since the point of the document is to examine the current class of shotguns to determine their importation under the "sporting purposes" proviso, this seems to telegraph the ATF's intent to stop allowing importation of shotguns that exhibit those features. Bear in mind that the current law only allows importation for guns which are deemed to have "sporting purposes". Among the features they cite as "not particularly suitable...for sporting purposes": (page 5) -- folding, telescoping or collabsible stocks -- magazines over 5 rounds, or drum magazines -- integrated rail systems -- forward grips or other parts designed for gripping the shotgun :-0 As far as USPSA goes, while they do admit that sporting purposes may evolve over time, they explicitly state that redefining "practical shooting" as a sport is not within their scope, and that they based their definition of "sporting purposes" on the "traditional sports of hunting, trap and skeet target shooting." (page 13). They go on to say that a change in ATF's position on practical shooting has "potential implications" beyond the scope of the study, and the study group believes that "a more thorough and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting a generally recognized sporting purpose." So, yeah, it's positive in that it at least shows they're thinking about things. But they continue to base their import regulations on a definition of "sporting purposes" that excludes... well, frankly, many of the features of the Saiga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 With respect, you must be reading a different document than I've seen. the 34-page doc I've been reading documents a whole bunch of firearm features which the ATF considers "not particularly suitable or readily adaptable for sporting purposes". Since the point of the document is to examine the current class of shotguns to determine their importation under the "sporting purposes" proviso, this seems to telegraph the ATF's intent to stop allowing importation of shotguns that exhibit those features. Bear in mind that the current law only allows importation for guns which are deemed to have "sporting purposes". Among the features they cite as "not particularly suitable...for sporting purposes": (page 5) -- folding, telescoping or collabsible stocks -- magazines over 5 rounds, or drum magazines -- integrated rail systems -- forward grips or other parts designed for gripping the shotgun Yes, I read the whole document. I am also well read on the gun control act of 1968. The point being is NO shotgun is currently imported with those features anyway. The only guns that are, are restricted for military/LE use only. This is no way effects what people are doing to Saigas once they are imported as individuals; it could effect what gunsmiths are doing with guns they are modifying before they are sold to customers. That is a more complicated legal issue I don't want to get into here. The document also states that detach magazines and pistol grips are not unsporting...so maybe we'll be able to get Saigas in now with pistol grips rather than that stupid sporter stock they come with and everyone changes out anyway. My guess is ATF is putting out this list so manufacturers and importers have some guidance as to what will be acceptable and they don't have to do so much back and forth to get rulings issued on specific guns. As far as USPSA goes, while they do admit that sporting purposes may evolve over time, they explicitly state that redefining "practical shooting" as a sport is not within their scope, and that they based their definition of "sporting purposes" on the "traditional sports of hunting, trap and skeet target shooting." (page 13). They go on to say that a change in ATF's position on practical shooting has "potential implications" beyond the scope of the study, and the study group believes that "a more thorough and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting a generally recognized sporting purpose." Compare this document to the one from 1989 that was openly hostile towards "police combat games"...this is progress. Also if they admit 3 gun is a sporting purpose now every military style rifle is now acceptable for import in its original configuration; this would undo 21 years of regulatory policy. That isn't something they're going to take lightly. So, yeah, it's positive in that it at least shows they're thinking about things. But they continue to base their import regulations on a definition of "sporting purposes" that excludes... well, frankly, many of the features of the Saiga. And which features does the Saiga-12 have as imported that are on that list? None of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am an eternal optimist, but I think it's encouraging that BATF actually refers to it as "practical" shotgun instead of "milita" shotgun, "ninja" shotgun, or "GI Joe" shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am an eternal optimist, but I think it's encouraging that BATF actually refers to it as "practical" shotgun instead of "milita" shotgun, "ninja" shotgun, or "GI Joe" shotgun. Pretty cool idea............NINJA Match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 It would be hard to recognize your buddies though if everyone is wearing black pajamas, a black face mask, and black socks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack T Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am currently building guns for ATF Agents and they see nothing in the wind. ATF did a study, starting a few months ago, checking with various shooting organizations about the use of the shotgun within the various disciplines, USPSA included. It received excellent support. What will probably be targeted is the MD 20 round drum magazine, as it has no SPORTING use as determined by ATF. ATF just approved more magazine/box fed magazines for import into the US and it looks like box fed Chinese NORINCO shotguns will be approved for import. Money talks, and this is just another deal with the Chinese. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THM7 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Well this has not hurt the price of Saiga 12's....Besides feeding design I do not know why the MD drum or for that matter promag drums would be any less sporting than a 13 rnd box mag. Whatever happens I have 3 converted Saigas....I hope that will suffice for duration of my 3gun career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imadvm Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Can't understand why the drum mag is banned as I have seen shooters with 20 box mags --- of course, I don't understand a lot of what the government does. I think I'll keep my two Saigas for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) What will probably be targeted is the MD 20 round drum magazine, as it has no SPORTING use as determined by ATF. Anything about 5 rounds is considered "non-sporting" per the current document; box and drum mags. There is no legal avenue for BATF to rule that the drums or mags cannot be made without legislation being passed. As long as domestic manufacturers and importers don't include them with the guns at the point of sale the guns can't be ruled as non-sporting and thus DDs under the GCA. Can't understand why the drum mag is banned as I have seen shooters with 20 box mags --- of course, I don't understand a lot of what the government does. I think I'll keep my two Saigas for now. The document states that drums and box mags of more than 5 rounds are non-sporting, and thus prohibited from importation. Edited February 10, 2011 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasSean Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 So many people that read this document miss the most important part. It applies to IMPORT of shotguns with those configurations. It doesn't apply to domestically made shotguns, or shotguns modified once they hit the states. With that being said, there are very few shotguns that this clarification (not even a ruling or law) applies to. And the ones that it does apply to, it applied to years before this document was released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) So many people that read this document miss the most important part. It applies to IMPORT of shotguns with those configurations. It doesn't apply to domestically made shotguns, or shotguns modified once they hit the states. With that being said, there are very few shotguns that this clarification (not even a ruling or law) applies to. And the ones that it does apply to, it applied to years before this document was released. The sticky thing is that the Gun Control Act Also defines Destructive Devices as any gun with a bore over .50", except for shotguns with sporting purposes. Right now this document only applies to imported guns...if they applied the same sporting purpose test to domestically made or modified guns, this could get really interesting (not in a good way). Edited February 10, 2011 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasSean Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The sticky thing is that the Gun Control Act Also defines Destructive Devices as any gun with a bore over .50", except for shotguns with sporting purposes. Right now this document only applies to imported guns...if they applied the same sporting purpose test to domestically made or modified guns, this could get really interesting (not in a good way). I agree completely. If the scope of coverage of this (or many more) document changes, then they'll be opening a whole can of worms. But until then, it's just playing the "if" game. All this document did was address that terms and usage change, and that this document should be a "living document" that changes with it. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. But the only action I've seen as of right now related to this document is the scare tactics implemented by several dealers to mark up and sell out their inventory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now