mactiger Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I have to disagree with Mr. Stevens. I think we all agree that scoring calls can't be arbitrated, as spelled out in 9.6.6. However, the wording of 11.7.1 leaves an "appeal" to re-examine just about anything open to a 3rd party action, because the rest of that rule reads: "In such cases, all provisions of this chapter shall otherwise remain in force", and 11.1.3 discusses appeals, and the process associated with them. Jerry could not have submitted a written arbitration as a third party, because of 9.6.6. However, according to the rules as cited above, he can indeed appeal the call to the RO, the CRO, and the RM. While this is not often done, it's legal within the rules to do so. My opinion, of course. YMMV. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 What I think really supports Gary's reading is that 11.7.1 says: "Appeals may also be submitted by other persons on a "third party appeal" basis." This wording implies the submission of a written document, rather than a verbal request. In Chapter 11 submission, submitting and submitted are used in several other places, and in those cases exclusively in regard to written documents. Nah...for that it would simply need to state Arbs. instead of appeals. It doesn't say that at all. There is nothing about a written document, nothing about specifying an arb. If that is what it meant, it would be really easy to say it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 So Troy, that likely brings us to the timing of the 3rd party appeal then? (as Gary mentioned early, I believe) In other words, did Jerry ask for the target to be looked at again before the score sheet got signed by the shooter and the RO? That would seem to be the next factor in the chain of events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't really have a lot of information on this call, as I wasn't on the range at the time. I do understand that the target was pulled to expedite scoring by the RM which was requested by Jerry. I don't really know about timing, or what happened with the score sheet, and I'd only be guessing. My answer was posted as more of a rules clarification/opinion on the legality of this type appeal more than from knowledge of the sequence of events. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Let me try a different tack by phrasing the question as: If a 3rd party appeals the scoring of a target, should the competitor be prevented from signing the scoresheet until the RM has made a ruling? Should the RO have even sign the scoresheet in the first place? We've obviously seen what happens if the the competitor does sign the scoresheet before the RM has made a scoring decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Just trying to get this straight in my mind in case I come across this... Even though 9.6 refers many times to the competitor and/or their delegate being able to raise an appeal with respect to target scoring, and no other person or entity is mentioned as having that ability, a fellow competitor can ask for a target to be pulled and reviewed by the RM after the scoresheet is signed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 ... a fellow competitor can ask for a target to be pulled and reviewed by the RM after the scoresheet is signed? Change 'after' to 'before'...and I would say yes. (well, it should go through the chain ... RO > CRO > RM) I don't see ANY standing for a 3rd party appeal after the score sheet is signed. (I'm not really trying to get too deep into what happened at the Revo. Nats either...I wasn't there...just trying to get it all figured out and that is the ready example.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 What I think really supports Gary's reading is that 11.7.1 says: "Appeals may also be submitted by other persons on a "third party appeal" basis." This wording implies the submission of a written document, rather than a verbal request. In Chapter 11 submission, submitting and submitted are used in several other places, and in those cases exclusively in regard to written documents. Nah...for that it would simply need to state Arbs. instead of appeals. It doesn't say that at all. There is nothing about a written document, nothing about specifying an arb. If that is what it meant, it would be really easy to say it that way. Read Chapter 11 again. There are no "arbs", only appeals. An appeal submitted to an arbitration committee is what we commonly call an arb. An appeal is only submitted if it is to a committee, if it is to an RO, CRO, or RM it is "asked". Your contention that "If that is what it meant, it would be really easy to say it that way." is particularly disingenous, considering your experience with the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 ... a fellow competitor can ask for a target to be pulled and reviewed by the RM after the scoresheet is signed? Change 'after' to 'before'...and I would say yes. (well, it should go through the chain ... RO > CRO > RM) I don't see ANY standing for a 3rd party appeal after the score sheet is signed. (I'm not really trying to get too deep into what happened at the Revo. Nats either...I wasn't there...just trying to get it all figured out and that is the ready example.) If I changed it, it wouldn't be the same question. I've seen many shooters challenge a call on a target (including me). RO walks by and calls A-C, and the person ready to tape the target says, "Can you look again? That sure looks like 2 Alpha." (been on both sides of that). That's an appeal (or a challenge, if you perfer), and made before the scoresheet is signed. I have no issue with that. I'm just trying to make sure what I'm reading in this thread is what was intended. I may have mis-read it. Can a fellow competitor can ask for a target to be pulled and reviewed by the RM after the scoresheet is signed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Just trying to get this straight in my mind in case I come across this... Even though 9.6 refers many times to the competitor and/or their delegate being able to raise an appeal with respect to target scoring, and no other person or entity is mentioned as having that ability, a fellow competitor can ask for a target to be pulled and reviewed by the RM after the scoresheet is signed? I'd say no, if it was after, and I don't know the whole set of circumstances around this one. Before yes; after, no. And, I get what you are saying about 9.6--I read it that way, too, but 11.7.1 has some bearing here. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Troy do you say that the next time the National Championships are being hotly contested, that any shooter, or the guy cleaning the porta potty for that matter, can get involved with the scoring? Can they "appeal" to have Todd's or Robbie's, or whomever's targets pulled and examined by the RM despite the RO/CRO having scored it to the shooters satisfaction? Can they do this on several stages? We always grant a scoring "appeal" from the shooter, even if it is on every stage. I have never seen or know of one being turned down. So do we grant the porta potty guys appeal every time or do we treat these differently? Gee I love this stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I am not sure where the reshoot came in? I'm guessing it arose from the discrepancy in scoring the target by the RO, CRO and RM, and by the fact that the scoresheet had been signed. Really only bad choices there -- either the shooter agrees to eat a miss (i.e. agrees to a change on the scoresheet -- something I might be loathe to do, if I were confident that it was possible that I'd shot a perfect double with that particular gun/that particular target) or all of the other competitor's wind up in a different position for the match as a result of a bad call. Ultimately, this appears to be a mistake by the stage staff, in being efficient in obtaining the competitor's initials -- that is if the reporting is accurate; and if I were editing the article, I would have had a few questions that needed clarification on the details.... Offering the reshoot -- while not supported by the rules, might have been the best (Solomon-like) decision to maintain competitive equity..... Impossible to say without having been there.... Implies, what seems right etc are not what RO's , CRO's, RM's, Umpires. Referees are all about. From a lifetime of officiating, our job is not to interpret the rules but to apply them.. Solomon writes the rules, we simply apply them. Jim G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Troy do you say that the next time the National Championships are being hotly contested, that any shooter, or the guy cleaning the porta potty for that matter, can get involved with the scoring? Can they "appeal" to have Todd's or Robbie's, or whomever's targets pulled and examined by the RM despite the RO/CRO having scored it to the shooters satisfaction? Can they do this on several stages? We always grant a scoring "appeal" from the shooter, even if it is on every stage. I have never seen or know of one being turned down. So do we grant the porta potty guys appeal every time or do we treat these differently? Gee I love this stuff The way the rules are written, it appears only the Shooter and his delegate can appeal. The rest is just background noise. Jim G Edited January 28, 2011 by coldchar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Troy do you say that the next time the National Championships are being hotly contested, that any shooter, or the guy cleaning the porta potty for that matter, can get involved with the scoring? Can they "appeal" to have Todd's or Robbie's, or whomever's targets pulled and examined by the RM despite the RO/CRO having scored it to the shooters satisfaction? Can they do this on several stages? We always grant a scoring "appeal" from the shooter, even if it is on every stage. I have never seen or know of one being turned down. So do we grant the porta potty guys appeal every time or do we treat these differently? Gee I love this stuff Well, per the rules as I read them, yes to other competitors being able to appeal the scoring. I understand what you're saying about doing it for the competitor,if he asks, no question about that. I think this was a kind of odd request, but within the rules, and while I know a few of the circumstances surrounding this whole thing, I don't know them all, so I can't really tell what was done when. I do think, from the little I know, that it was done per the rulebook, though. I wouldn't let the portapotty guy do it, but how many times have we (you, me, a ton of others), re-scored a target because someone else pointed out something we missed? Granted, it was almost always in the shooter's favor, but if we take another look at it because someone other than the shooter pointed it out, can it not work the other way, i.e., not be in the shooter's favor? Likewise, if someone in the squad points out a no-shoot hit that the RO/CRO missed, is that not an "appeal" of sorts, and to the detriment of the shooter's score at that. Both are appeals as far as I can tell. Do I like this whole thing? Not really, especially since it was written up in Front Sight without a bunch of detail and explanation, leaving people to speculate. However, I think this has been a pretty good discussion on the rules surrounding, and allowing, just such an appeal. The signed score sheet/reshoot thing is a whole different topic, IMO, and I don't know enough about that to comment at all. Me, too, I love it! Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 An appeal can only be made by the actual shooter. Can my delegate appeal the scoring for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Attention general statement follows: Allowing any person on the range to have any shooters target pulled and scored by the RM despite the shooter and the RO/CRO being in agreement is something I do not believe we can allow to stand. I'm thinking competitive equity is paramount. I know that on long range days I've been saved by others pointing out bad scoring calls I've made -- and they haven't always been the shooter or other RO..... I believe a wrong score hurts everyone -- the shooter, and his competition..... Are you anticipating a sudden rush to have 100s of targets pulled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 My reading for what it is worth: A 3rd party can file an arbitration on anything that is not prohibited by another rule, such as the RM's decision on scoring. An appeal can only be made by the actual shooter. That requires one to believe that appeal and arbitration are two different words, which I do. Gary Given that on scoring the decision making chain stops with the RM, I don't believe a third party can file an arb to protest a scoring call. I do think they can request the CRO and RM, depending on situation, to take another look -- but there's nothing in the book to force the CRO or RM to comply. I really don't think we want to be pulling targets and preserving them for arbitration, and I don't think that we want to open up scoring to a panel of folks whose experience is likely to be considerably less than a Range Master's is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) One thing you overlook Nik is that we apparently had a signed score sheet. The shooter, RO/CRO, were all in agreement and the RM was not involved until after the score sheet was signed. Then things changed by request of an individual who was not a participant to the scoring. Yes your delegate counts, unless you overrule them and sign your score sheet. I know shooters. Once this is fleshed out, I anticipate you will see it more often than you would think. As to pointing out something on a target as scoring is proceeding, no problem. Pointing out a no shoot hit after the score sheet is signed, is a different matter. If the shooter wants to accept it, then change the score sheet it is allowed per rule. However, if he does not, can a squad member then call the RM and the shooter be forced to accept it or be ordered to reshoot? Is the scenario of being forced to accept the no shoot or reshoot different from what is being discussed here? If so, how? Edited January 28, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Just trying to get this straight in my mind in case I come across this... Even though 9.6 refers many times to the competitor and/or their delegate being able to raise an appeal with respect to target scoring, and no other person or entity is mentioned as having that ability, a fellow competitor can ask for a target to be pulled and reviewed by the RM after the scoresheet is signed? I'd say no, if it was after, and I don't know the whole set of circumstances around this one. Before yes; after, no. And, I get what you are saying about 9.6--I read it that way, too, but 11.7.1 has some bearing here. Troy Thanks. That's what I was reading, too. As for 11.7.1, I don't see a problem with 3rd-party appeals/arbitrations. It's a common enough occurance. My concern was that some folks seem to be saying it is OK to file under 11.7.1 for a scoring issue, which would be specifically excluded by the first sentence of 11.1.2 in combination with 9.6.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'm guessing there will be a lot more 3rd party input as a result of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 My concern was that some folks seem to be saying it is OK to file under 11.7.1 for a scoring issue, which would be specifically excluded by the first sentence of 11.1.2 in combination with 9.6.6. It's excluded only if it has gone to the RM. If a scoring dispute has not advanced to the RM, 9.6.6 does not limit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'm guessing there will be a lot more 3rd party input as a result of this thread. Maybe. And maybe they won't get very far and will gow tired of it. My opinion is that JA did not have to entertain the appeal since a signed scoresheet existed and neither the competitor nor their delegate initiated the scoring appeal. With the benefit of having had this good discussion to refer to in the future (20/20 hindsight, which he didn't have) I'm not sure if I am serving as RM that I would accept a scoring appeal from a 3rd-party under those circumstances. I'd certainly talk to the parties, especially the shooter and the RO/CRO. But if that shooter waves a proper, signed scoresheet in my face, and indicates he has no intention of requesting a change, that will be where I politely bow out. We all know the appeals process for scoring can include the RM -- if it gets that far. But if the shooter and the RO crew are satisfied with the scoresheet, and mutually sign it, I think that's the end of it. That's the lesson I will taking away from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Mark once again your wisdom shines like a beacon on the hill Edited January 28, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Like some smart guy said, these discussions are dry-fire practice for ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 My concern was that some folks seem to be saying it is OK to file under 11.7.1 for a scoring issue, which would be specifically excluded by the first sentence of 11.1.2 in combination with 9.6.6. It's excluded only if it has gone to the RM. If a scoring dispute has not advanced to the RM, 9.6.6 does not limit it. Nope, sorry. Read all of section 9.6. It lays out the procedure for scoring. If an appellant doesn't choose to elevate to the RM, he accepts the decision of the CRO. The scoring call cannot then be elevated to an arbitration on the logic of "Well, the RM didn't make a call." Any arb committee should immediately question if the matter was appealed to the RM. If it wasn't, then game over.... If the RM was asked to rule and refused to examine the target -- then we might have a situation for arbitration.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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