Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I posted this in the I think Revolver section, but I think it should be here. The one part of this original thread that still bothers me is the request by someone other than the shooter to pull a target. A 3rd party appeal (arbitration) can be filed, but apparently that wasn't the case. Can any competitor have someone else's target pulled now for an RM look over? If so, I can see a lot of room for mischief. Gary I'm not certain that a third party arbitration can be filed -- wouldn't 9.6.6. still apply? 9.6.6 The Range Master's ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed with respect to the scoring decision. I'd probably support denying an arbitration in that instance with the following: 11.7 Third Party Appeals11.7.1 Appeals may also be submitted by other persons on a "third party appeal" basis. In such cases, all provisions of this Chapter will otherwise remain in force. and with: 11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. I think if the sequence of events was: RO: "Range is Clear" ... RO: "Alpha Mike"... Shooter: "Please overlay"... RO: "Alpha Mike"... Shooter: "Please have the CRO look with an overlay"... CRO: "2 Alpha"... RO: "Please, sign here"... then a 3rd party arb can be requested without 9.6.6 kicking in to deny the arbitration. Now if the sequence of events were: RO: "Range is Clear" ... RO: "Alpha Mike"... Shooter: "Please overlay"... RO: "Alpha Mike"... Shooter: "Please have the CRO look with an overlay"... CRO: "Alpha Mike"... Shooter: "Please have the Range Master look with an overlay"... RM: "2 Alpha" (or "Alpha Mike")... RO: "Please, sign here"... then a 3rd party arb should be denied right out of the gate. Reading Cliff's account on the other thread, it sounds like what happened was: RO: "Range is Clear"... RO: "Anyone got an overlay?"... RO: "CRO, can you take a look?" CRO: "2 Alpha"... RO: "Please sign here..." 3rd Party: "Please pull the target, and have the RM take a look." RM: "Alpha Mike. You got 3 choices: score stands, amend the score, or reshoot." Shooter: "I'll take the reshoot.". What should have happened was 3rd Party says: "I'd like to appeal the score. I would like to have the target pulled as evidence, while I fill out the arbitration form. Here's my $100." 3rd Party: "Mr. Range Master, here is my appeal, and the RO's have the target as evidence." RM: "Alpha Mike. No need for committee. Here's your $100 back. Amend the scoresheet." [sorry, mouse button slipped while I was flipping tabs.] Third party appeal to RM I could maybe see, as the rulebook is silent on that -- but individual scoring disputes can't be elevated to arbitration, by rule..... So, no arb possible, but certainly anyone can "at least theoretically" request the RM at any time for any reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Nik has it right--you can't arbitrate a scoring call, whether it's third party or first party, and merely asking the RM to look at a target, no matter what the circumstances, is NOT a 3rd party appeal. That's an arbitration. The way the scoring challenge rules read, they are all about the competitor challenging a score on his target, not someone else in the squad challenging another competitor's target. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I posted this in the I think Revolver section, but I think it should be here. The one part of this original thread that still bothers me is the request by someone other than the shooter to pull a target. A 3rd party appeal (arbitration) can be filed, but apparently that wasn't the case. Can any competitor have someone else's target pulled now for an RM look over? If so, I can see a lot of room for mischief. Gary Hmmm... I believe we are all looking at this from the standpoint that an appeal is the same as an arbitration. Looking closer, that does not seem to be the case. Professor brings up some good points in the thread in the Revo section (we might want to merge the discussion). see here If I am following right... - A third party can appeal a call. (An appeal is not yet an arb) 11.1.7 As I think about it, this seems to make sense. A third party can certainly have a stake in the correct call being made (especially among top GM's as a Nationals wraps up). - Appeals can go up the chain to the RM. It sounds like the score sheet got signed by bother the shooter and an RO...before the RM had finished consideration of the (3rd party) appeal. ? I am not sure where the reshoot came in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Hmmm... I believe we are all looking at this from the standpoint that an appeal is the same as an arbitration. Looking closer, that does not seem to be the case.Professor brings up some good points in the thread in the Revo section (we might want to merge the discussion). see here If I am following right... - A third party can appeal a call. (An appeal is not yet an arb) 11.1.7 As I think about it, this seems to make sense. A third party can certainly have a stake in the correct call being made (especially among top GM's as a Nationals wraps up). - Appeals can go up the chain to the RM. The rules seem somewhat unclear. 11.1.3 and 11.1.4 state that you appeal to the RO, if you're not happy then the CRO, and then if you're not happy the RM, and then if you're not happy you appeal to an Arb Committee. 11.1.7 implies that the RM may be passed in the chain. 9.7.4 specifies "arbitration decision", which seems to require a formal written summission, fee, and committee. Edited January 26, 2011 by Flexmoney to fix my quoted typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Hmmm... I believe we are all looking at this from the standpoint that an appeal is the same as an arbitration. Looking closer, that does not seem to be the case.Professor brings up some good points in the thread in the Revo section (we might want to merge the discussion). see here If I am following right... - A third party can appeal a call. (An appeal is not yet an arb) 11.1.7 As I think about it, this seems to make sense. A third party can certainly have a stake in the correct call being made (especially among top GM's as a Nationals wraps up). - Appeals can go up the chain to the RM. The rules seem somewhat unclear. 11.1.3 and 11.1.4 state that you appeal to the RO, if you're not happy then the CRO, and then if you're not happy the RM, and then if you're not happy you appeal to an Arb Committee. 11.1.7 implies that the RM may be passed in the chain. 9.7.4 specifies "arbitration decision", which seems to require a formal written summission, fee, and committee. 9.7.4 does not apply to scoring disputes though. Scoring disputes can only arise in terms of targets -- is that an alpha or a charlie? Is that a hit on the no-shoot, or is it entirely within the no-scoring border..... 9.7.4 deals with all of the other things recorded on scoresheets -- impossibly fast or slow times, procedural penalties, etc. which could lead to an arbitration.... Scoring calls stop with the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I am not sure where the reshoot came in? I'm guessing it arose from the discrepancy in scoring the target by the RO, CRO and RM, and by the fact that the scoresheet had been signed. Really only bad choices there -- either the shooter agrees to eat a miss (i.e. agrees to a change on the scoresheet -- something I might be loathe to do, if I were confident that it was possible that I'd shot a perfect double with that particular gun/that particular target) or all of the other competitor's wind up in a different position for the match as a result of a bad call. Ultimately, this appears to be a mistake by the stage staff, in being efficient in obtaining the competitor's initials -- that is if the reporting is accurate; and if I were editing the article, I would have had a few questions that needed clarification on the details.... Offering the reshoot -- while not supported by the rules, might have been the best (Solomon-like) decision to maintain competitive equity..... Impossible to say without having been there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 9.7.4 does not apply to scoring disputes though. Scoring disputes can only arise in terms of targets -- is that an alpha or a charlie? Is that a hit on the no-shoot, or is it entirely within the no-scoring border.....9.7.4 deals with all of the other things recorded on scoresheets -- impossibly fast or slow times, procedural penalties, etc. which could lead to an arbitration.... Scoring calls stop with the RM. 9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. Why do you think that 9.7.4 does not apply to scoring disputes? It seems to me to specifically apply to them, basically saying that once the sheet is signed the score is carved in stone (with two exceptions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 ...if I were confident that it was possible that I'd shot a perfect double... A perfect double is always possible, but regardless a perfect double is supposed to be scored as a miss. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 9.7.4 does not apply to scoring disputes though. Scoring disputes can only arise in terms of targets -- is that an alpha or a charlie? Is that a hit on the no-shoot, or is it entirely within the no-scoring border.....9.7.4 deals with all of the other things recorded on scoresheets -- impossibly fast or slow times, procedural penalties, etc. which could lead to an arbitration.... Scoring calls stop with the RM. 9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. Why do you think that 9.7.4 does not apply to scoring disputes? It seems to me to specifically apply to them, basically saying that once the sheet is signed the score is carved in stone (with two exceptions). What I was referring to was that the arbitration language in 9.7.4 doesn't contravene 9.6.6, i.e. you can arb a few things on a score sheet, but not the actual scoring of the targets. You could probably arb the recording of the hits though, i.e. the scorer calls out A-C, the RO clipboard records A-D..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 ...if I were confident that it was possible that I'd shot a perfect double... A perfect double is always possible, but regardless a perfect double is supposed to be scored as a miss. Am I wrong? No you're not -- but that's not what we're ultimately discussing in this thread.... The discussion centers around the perfect of a target being scored differently by the RO/CRO and RM and the scoresheet being signed in the middle..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 No you're not -- but that's not what we're ultimately discussing in this thread.... From the sound of it, that's part of it. It's what happens when an RO scores one round hole as two hits, when it should be one miss, and another shooter calling foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 No you're not -- but that's not what we're ultimately discussing in this thread.... From the sound of it, that's part of it. It's what happens when an RO scores one round hole as two hits, when it should be one miss, and another shooter calling foul. That's what got the match staff and competitors in to the situation. And I wasn't there/didn't see the target/have the utmost confidence that none of the staff or competitors wanted to end up in that particular situation.... The thread was really about how to get out of it, now that they were in it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I've been mulling this around quiet a bit now. Let's suppose the situation evolved like this, shooter A has a hit scored as a double. He/she agrees with the RO and CRO who all looked at the target and scored it as a double. Score sheet is filled out and signed, end of story perhaps. Now shooter B doesn't agree and ask for the target to be pulled and states that he will file an arbitration. Now we can't arb the RM's decision, but the RM at this point is not involved as shooter B is lodging an arbitration as a 3rd party directly from the RO/CRO. It seems to me then that if the arb paperwork is completed, and money paid, that the scoring of the target falls to the arbitration committee to score and render a decision. The arb committee could use the RM as a tool in their box to score the target, or they might score the target themselves and render a decision. Regardless it seems to me that once an arbitration (3rd party) is filed the ultimate score would be decided by the arbitration committee. The key element in this, IMO, is that shooter A did not appeal to the RM as he/she was satisfied with the score and signed their score sheet. Agree or disagree? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I've been mulling this around quiet a bit now. Let's suppose the situation evolved like this, shooter A has a hit scored as a double. He/she agrees with the RO and CRO who all looked at the target and scored it as a double. Score sheet is filled out and signed, end of story perhaps. Now shooter B doesn't agree and ask for the target to be pulled and states that he will file an arbitration. Now we can't arb the RM's decision, but the RM at this point is not involved as shooter B is lodging an arbitration as a 3rd party directly from the RO/CRO. It seems to me then that if the arb paperwork is completed, and money paid, that the scoring of the target falls to the arbitration committee to score and render a decision. The arb committee could use the RM as a tool in their box to score the target, or they might score the target themselves and render a decision. Regardless it seems to me that once an arbitration (3rd party) is filed the ultimate score would be decided by the arbitration committee. The key element in this, IMO, is that shooter A did not appeal to the RM as he/she was satisfied with the score and signed their score sheet. Agree or disagree? Gary I agree. I'm a little concerned though about what happens when the RM is informed of the appeal for arbitration as per 7.1.6. ("All match disqualifications and appeals to arbitration must be brought to his attention.") Can the RM score the target and thereby putting 9.6.6 into play and effectively bypass the arb committee? Or is the RM compelled to stay silent unless the committee asks the RM to score to target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Agree or disagree? Yes ... There was no arb in this call, that I know of. It really isn't part of the issue (other than our on speculation)? There are a few issues. Maybe we need to break them down to look at them? (I like to look at what is fundamental in an issue to help me figure it out). First thing...appeal vs. arbitration. Q1: Can a 3rd person appeal a call on another shooter's target? A1: I believe so. And, the appeal can go from RO > CRO > RM ... ? Q2: Can a 1st or 3rd person arbitrate a call on a target? (arbitration being a specific process, seeking relief beyond the call of the RM) A2: For a scoring issue, I don't believe the rules allow for an arb. The rule book seems to give the RM the final say on a scoring issue. Q3: Is this a "scoring issue"? A3: Yes, I believe so. It is not an issue with lost or incorrectly filled out score sheet. (or is it?) If the above is accurate, then... From my understanding (from what I have read here in the two threads, I was not there)... What we have is the score sheet getting signed before the appeals process was completed. Right? Q4: We have a rule that says the score sheet, once signed, stands...unless the shooter and the RO both agree it is in error, or it goes to arbitration. A4: It can't go to arbitration, right? Since it is a scoring issue, which stops at the RM...no Arb. ? Q5: Both the shooter and the RO (in this case the RM in place of the RO?) would need to agree that the score sheet did not have the correct info on it? If that happens, what is the proper call? A5: The proper call would seem to be...whatever the correct call is on the current target. In this case, a Mike(?). Therefore, a reshoot was not warranted. Q6: Now, what if we go back to Q3...what if it is looked at as not being a scoring issue? I can see where it is a break down in the process. The 3rd party appeal was not completed before the score sheet was signed...therefore, we have a faulty score sheet, not a scoring issue. What is the correct call in that situation? A6: ??? I still don't see the reshoot. Though, I can see a reshoot if the case was that a correct score could not conclusively be agreed upon. ??? Hmmm. Bottom line seems to be that the score sheet should not have been signed. Live and learn. (which seems to be Gary's "key element" as well...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I don't think you bring in the RM to tell the Arb committee how to rule. I believe the Arb should be where a competitor seeks relief from the call on the field. I think it would be a breech of the process to have the RM do anything but give witness. But, this never went to arb. (we have injected that into the conversation here on the forum) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) The recording of the score and the signing of the score sheet is a process between the shooter and the RO/CRO and is not time related to the approval of the squad or any individual, IMO. I read the word "appeal" to be the process that the shooter uses to exhaust all available avenues of remedy for his scoring issue. To me this "appeal" right belongs to the shooter exclusively. Had I been the RM I would not have entertained an "appeal" to score a target from anyone but the shooter. Now I do believe there is a process of "arbitration" where a 3rd party can become involved. That was outlined in my previous posting. Attention general statement follows: Allowing any person on the range to have any shooters target pulled and scored by the RM despite the shooter and the RO/CRO being in agreement is something I do not believe we can allow to stand. Edited January 27, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The recording of the score and the signing of the score sheet is a process between the shooter and the RO/CRO and is not time related to the approval of the squad or any individual, IMO. I read the word "appeal" to be the process that the shooter uses to exhaust all available avenues of remedy for his scoring issue. To me this "appeal" right belongs to the shooter exclusively. Had I been the RM I would not have entertained an "appeal" to score a target from anyone but the shooter. Now I do believe there is a process of "arbitration" where a 3rd party can become involved. That was outlined in my previous posting. Attention general statement follows: Allowing any person on the range to have any shooters target pulled and scored by the RM despite the shooter and the RO/CRO being in agreement is something I do not believe we can allow to stand. I don't think I agree with that, Gary. But don't hold me too that just yet. I will have to re-read (probably the whole block of rules)...to get the context... From what I have looked at so far, a 3rd party has a right (per the rule book) to appeal any call...just like the shooter has a right to appeal any call. Some appeals can go to arbitration, some can't. I can see where it could get messy (I see your concern). Then again...this might be a perfect example of the need. I know that a Production Nationals was decided in this exact same manner a few years ago. As I recall the story, Competitor A shot a target where the RO gave him the higher hit. Competitor B was taping the target and noticed the hit was about a quarter inch outside the line and asked the RO to give it a closer look. Sure enough, it was not touching the higher scoring line. That National Championship was decided by about a tenth of a point. (Competitor B won over Competitor A) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 A wise person always leaves room to "re-evaluate" the situation:) I don't have any problem with your Production Nationals example as the scoring process was apparently still ongoing and the score sheet had not been signed. I have done that often, although mine have been to point out a higher hit for a shooter:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzYooper Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The recording of the score and the signing of the score sheet is a process between the shooter and the RO/CRO and is not time related to the approval of the squad or any individual, IMO. I read the word "appeal" to be the process that the shooter uses to exhaust all available avenues of remedy for his scoring issue. To me this "appeal" right belongs to the shooter exclusively. Had I been the RM I would not have entertained an "appeal" to score a target from anyone but the shooter. Now I do believe there is a process of "arbitration" where a 3rd party can become involved. That was outlined in my previous posting. Attention general statement follows: Allowing any person on the range to have any shooters target pulled and scored by the RM despite the shooter and the RO/CRO being in agreement is something I do not believe we can allow to stand. I have only been an RO for a few years so I have been reading the responses to learn more. This post by Gary was the closest to what I feel is right. In local matches I have heard other shooters in the squad say "I would not have given that call" or "he was robbed on that call" but in local matches it never goes farther than that. I understand that Nationals is more important, but I think that calls need to be consistent across all match levels. If any other shooter can appeal a call should we not have a signature for every shooter on every score sheet? As a shooter in a squad should I be following the RO during scoring to verify all hits instead of taping? I know that I'm getting kind of crazy, or slippery here, but I would just like to know the definitive answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) First thing...appeal vs. arbitration. Q1: Can a 3rd person appeal a call on another shooter's target? A1: I believe so. And, the appeal can go from RO > CRO > RM ... ? This is the starting point of the chain that is a little hazy. 9.6.4 only talks about the competitor (or his delegate) challenging the scoring. In this situation, the competitor agreed with the RO's scoring. How does a 3rd person get to insert themselves into the process? Edited January 27, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) My reading for what it is worth: A 3rd party can file an arbitration on anything that is not prohibited by another rule, such as the RM's decision on scoring. An appeal can only be made by the actual shooter. That requires one to believe that appeal and arbitration are two different words, which I do. Gary Edited January 27, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 My reading for what it is worth: A 3rd party can file an arbitration on anything that is not prohibited by another rule, such as the RM's decision on scoring. An appeal can only be made by the actual shooter. That requires one to believe that appeal and arbitration are two different words, which I do. Gary I like this reading, since it allows a third party to appeal what they think is wrong, but would require them to do it in writing and submit a fee, keeping down numbers. I also think that this reading is supported by the rules since: Appeals may be made verbally (11.1.3 says "asked") to the RO, CRO, and RM. Several rules help in defining how an appeal goes to the next step by submission to an arbitration committee (11.1.2, 11.1.4, 11.1.8). What I think really supports Gary's reading is that 11.7.1 says: "Appeals may also be submitted by other persons on a “third party appeal” basis." This wording implies the submission of a written document, rather than a verbal request. In Chapter 11 submission, submitting and submitted are used in several other places, and in those cases exclusively in regard to written documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 So it appears that Jerry's request to pull the target, while perfectly acceptable, was handled poorly because he did not go through the proper arbitration channels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 My reading for what it is worth: A 3rd party can file an arbitration on anything that is not prohibited by another rule, such as the RM's decision on scoring. An appeal can only be made by the actual shooter. That requires one to believe that appeal and arbitration are two different words, which I do. Gary Having read further, I still disagree. The rule book doesn't limit appeals to the shooter, IMO. here are the relevant rules as I read it: 11.1.3 Appeals – the Range Officer makes decisions initially. If the appellant disagrees with a decision, the Chief Range Officer for the stage or area in question should be asked to rule. If a disagreement still exists, the Range Master must be asked to rule. 11.7 Third Party Appeals 11.7.1 Appeals may also be submitted by other persons on a "third party appeal" basis. In such cases, all provisions of this Chapter will otherwise remain in force. The way that reads, 11.7.1 expressly allows for 3rd party appeals (not just arbs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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