Working up a new 9mm Production load

[JAFO]

After finding out that HS-6 isn't the best powder for a non-comped Production gun, I switched to Titegroup. I decided to go about developing this load a little more thoroughly than the last one (which was - does it feed, cycle, and not blow up? Good. ) Thanks to Santa, I got a ProChrono Digital and spent some time today testing some loads. I loaded 3.9, 4.1, and 4.3 gr of Titegroup and I shot the last of my old HS-6 load for comparison. All shots were made resting my hands on a box on top of a range bag (best I could improvise) with the target about 15 yards out. The group sizes would, hopefully, be smaller if shot from a sandbag, but I'm hoping they'll serve well enough to compare the loads to each other. I got the following results.

Temp: 65 ^oF (and, yes, it is actually January 1st here )

Sky: Clear

Distance from muzzle to first screen: ~15'

Gun: Sig P226, 4.4" factory barrel

Primer: Fed #100 Small Pistol

Bullet: 124gr Zero FMJ (Avg wt of 10 bullets pulled from the same box was 124.7gr. I used this weight for the PF calculation.)

COL: 1.161"

Mixed range brass

All strings were made up of 20 shots

Load 1 (6.7gr HS-6):

HI: 1147 / LO: 1082 / AV: 1120 / ES: 65 / Sd: 13 / Power Factor: 139 / Group size: 5.2" (and off to the left )

Load 2 (3.9gr Titegroup):

HI: 1018 / LO: 981 / AV: 998 / ES: 37 / Sd: 10 / Power Factor: 124 / Group size: 3.1"

Load 3 (4.1gr Titegroup):

HI: 1058 / LO: 1026 / AV: 1045 / ES: 32 / Sd: 8 / Power Factor: 130 / Group Size: 3.5"

Load 4 (4.3gr Titegroup):

HI: 1092 / LO: 1058 / AV: 1070 / ES: 34 / Sd: 8 / Power Factor: 133 / Group Size: 4.7"

Looking at this, it would seem that the 4.1gr load is the best of those tested. The 3.9gr load doesn't make Minor, and the group size on the 4.3gr load was over an inch larger (I did throw out one outlier from each group). My concern is that a PF of 130 isn't much cushion . I've never shot a match where there was a chrono, but if I do, I'd like to have the confidence that my loads will be OK. The max load I found in my manuals was 4.4gr @ 1150fps (Sierra), significantly faster than my 4.3gr load. I realize that loads run different in any gun, but the Sierra OAL was also 1.090", which is much shorter than my 1.161". If I reduce the COL of my 4.1gr load, will the increase in pressure give me an increase in velocity as well?

Thanks!

Edited January 2, 2011 by JAFO

[DWFAN]

If I reduce the COL of my 4.1gr load, will the increase in pressure give me an increase in velocity as well?

Thanks!

Yup. I run 4.1gr at about 1.125 - 1.14 and make 133-135pf in my M&P Pro, and 9mm 1911.

[RH45]

I run just about the same load for 9mm minor, except I run a Zero, 125 grain, .356, jhp(.38 Super bullet)I've been playing wit VVN320 for 9mm, minor loads, and I think it is a little better.

I ran a 226, back in 2000, and 2001, and I don't remember the exact load, but, I remember it was with 115 grain bullets, and they held about an inch at 25 yards.

[JAFO]

OK, so my next question - is it safe to further seat a loaded round? I have 75 rounds left over from today's steel match (I did better than I was expecting ), and I'm wondering if I could just seat these to a few different shorter OALs. Or is this not a safe practice?

[DyNo!]

4.0grs @ 1.160 gives me 130 PF - it's a great load!

[CeeZer]

Ideally, you want the greatest OAL your gun will shoot reliably with the bullet of choice. Then work up the load. And if you shoot quite a bit, choose from powders that are cheaper and require smaller (weight wise) load per round.

You may have more than one load, practice load/s and match load/s.

[G-ManBart]

That's a good start, but I agree that 130PF simply isn't enough for Minor. You can get away with it for local matches, but what many people do is crank that load up before big matches, to make sure they'll make PF, the gun suddenly feels different, and they shoot poorly.

I can't tell the difference between a 135 and 130PF load, but it gives you a much bigger margin for error. The reason this is so important is that when shooting Minor, if you go sub-Minor, you are no longer shooting for score. It's happened to some pretty big names, and it's not worth risking. You can read up on it in the chronograph section, but my personal example is a load (Major) that I have shot for a couple of years. I've had to make slight tweaks for individual powder lot variation, but other than that, it's stayed the same. I loaded a big batch of ammo with new cases, the same lot of powder, same lot of bullets and primers. I took some to two different majors where it went it's normal 172-174PF. I took some to the Nationals (2008) and it went 166.1PF I then used the same lot of powder, primers, and cases (new lot of bullets) and loaded ammo for the 2009 Nationals and it was 172PF. That's an 8PF swing from high to low, on the same kind of chrono (several the exact same chrono being run by the same guy).

I'd plan on running the same 4.1 and 4.3gr loads at least several more times, just to make sure you have a solid average, then once you're satisfied those numbers are pretty accurate, take some time and do some serious accuracy work with both. It's possible, but I'd be surprised to find many guns increasing group size 1.2" at 15yds. I'd also be concerned because 3-4" at 15yds isn't what I'd be hoping for. I'm picky (I'll admit it), but at 25yds, I want something more like 2" or better for a five shot group, and be able to do it with some consistency (we all mess up some).

If you can't get the accuracy, it might be OAL, or it might just be that your gun doesn't like that bullet. My M&P loves the Zero 147gr JHP (best of about 1.25" at 25yds), but throws a shotgun pattern with their 147gr FMJ....like 8"+ groups (not kidding). It's weird, but I shot enough groups with that bullet that I know it won't work...sold the rest of them to a buddy because they shot fine in his G34. R,

[JAFO]

I'll make up some more 4.3gr loads and shoot them and the 4.1's over the chrono again. But this time I'll use a sandbag and a better target. The improvised rest I used before was shaky and I was shooting at a paper IPSC target with no specific aiming point. If the 4.3gr groups prove to be better than I thought, that would be great. But if not, I'll try shortening the OAL on the 4.1gr load and see what happens.

[gordonm1]

Hello,

I just started loading 9mm for my sig 226. I'm using 124 montanna gold and tightgroup.

I found I can load to 1.150 OAL and still fit them in the mag and chamber. Your bullet may have a different profile and fit differently but for me that's a long OAL and a large range to experiment with.

Today I fired a 1.14 OAL with 4.2 grains tightgroup. No chrono but recoil was mild and funtion good. There was accuracy potential but I was not aiming to good today even with a rest in the cold weather.

I'm going to try 4.3 grains next. You might try 4.2 grains also.

I'm curious to what you end up with for OAL.

I consider tightgroup a very fast powder and I'm not sure what effect loading long will have with it. I think there can be problems with extreme situations of small powder charge in a large case but I have not heard of it in 9mm.

[JAFO]

I found I can load to 1.150 OAL and still fit them in the mag and chamber. Your bullet may have a different profile and fit differently but for me that's a long OAL and a large range to experiment with.

Yeah, I sized a case, partially seated a bullet, and then chambered it. The rifling pushed the bullet back to 1.170", so I'm about .007-.009" shy of max OAL and they feed fine. But if I need to shorten the OAL to increase velocity and not have a negative impact on accuracy, so be it. I'd rather do that than push the grains up. I've not seen any published Titegroup loads that exceeded 4.4gr, but all were with shorter OALs than mine.

[G-ManBart]

But if I need to shorten the OAL to increase velocity and not have a negative impact on accuracy, so be it. I'd rather do that than push the grains up. I've not seen any published Titegroup loads that exceeded 4.4gr, but all were with shorter OALs than mine.

Depending on which theory you want to believe, shortening the OAL will either cause the same increase in pressure as adding more powder, or cause a bigger increase in pressure than adding more powder, to get to the same higher velocity. At the very least, shortening the OAL will be no different than simply increasing the charge weight, so you could be going over pressure limits without going over recommended maximum charges. R,

[gm iprod]

I have used TG in 9mm for some time. I found that shortening up the loads to 1.125" with a Zero JHP just seemed to work the best across a bunch of guns. Depending on the exact firearm the load is 4.1gr = 1050fps and 4.2gr = 1075fps. All loads made minor in 4" guns and well over minor in 5" guns. 3.9gr = 1025fps (OAL is 1.120" for him) in my Dads Kimber Target 2, for his needs that is perfect

The JHP is absolutely the best way to go. Don't care what brand, I have tried Zero, Montana Gold, Hornady, Sierra and Noslers. All work better than the FMJ from same companies.

Hodgdon's data is in a 4" barrel but all are loaded to 1.090" so that is why they get the speedier load. I am just building a 6" barrel 9mm for NRA AP and will be testing the lighter loads with 125gr JHP soon. Hopefully later this month but don't hold your breath.

[CeeZer]

Well, if one is to compete and needs to make sure they meet PF - you have no choice but to run ammo thru chrono..

Also, some powders will be temp sensitive and you need to take into account altitude.. I mean, your load may make PF135 at sea level on a cold winter day, and won't make PF120 in ID, UT, AZ, CO or NM on a sunny summer day... depending on if powder is temp inverse or not.

Edited January 3, 2011 by CeeZer

[JAFO]

Depending on which theory you want to believe, shortening the OAL will either cause the same increase in pressure as adding more powder, or cause a bigger increase in pressure than adding more powder, to get to the same higher velocity. At the very least, shortening the OAL will be no different than simply increasing the charge weight, so you could be going over pressure limits without going over recommended maximum charges. R,

Well, I figured that I could shorten the OAL of my 4.3gr load as far down as 1.090", which is what Sierra used for their 4.4gr max load, and still be safe pressure-wise. Since I have no published data above 4.4gr regardless of OAL, I'd be in uncharted territory going over that with my OAL. Am I thinking correctly there?

[JAFO]

Well, if one is to compete and needs to make sure they meet PF - you have no choice but to run ammo thru chrono..

Also, some powders will be temp sensitive and you need to take into account altitude.. I mean, your load may make PF135 at sea level on a cold winter day, and won't make PF120 in ID, UT, AZ, CO or NM on a sunny summer day... depending on if powder is temp inverse or not.

I don't plan on traveling that far for a match in the near future, but is there a way to estimate velocity change vs altitude, or do you just have to chrono at the altitude at which you'll be shooting?

Edited January 4, 2011 by JAFO

[CZinSC]

I ran all of the same tests several months ago with TG for the 124FMJ ( like yours, mine area all closer to 125 than 124. )

I found the best accuracy was at 1.150. I tested 4.3gns at 1.13, 1.14, 1.15, and 1.16. I shot at an IPSC target at 15 yards. I used a sharpie and filled in a 3" diameter red circle on the target and aimed at it from a rest (basically my range bag). It's easy to see your spread when you have a frame of reference.

So my suggestion would be to use the 4.3 and see what happens when you move the OAL around. As GMan said, you want to stay up closer to 135 PF than 130.

[AKJD]

In your first post you didn't mention what your crimp measurement was, overcrimping could affect your accuracy.

[G-ManBart]

Well, I figured that I could shorten the OAL of my 4.3gr load as far down as 1.090", which is what Sierra used for their 4.4gr max load, and still be safe pressure-wise. Since I have no published data above 4.4gr regardless of OAL, I'd be in uncharted territory going over that with my OAL. Am I thinking correctly there?

Sure, that load should be safe at 4.3gr at 1.090" assuming the bullet has the same basic profile that Sierra used (not at home to look).

If it were me, I'd probably bump it to 4.4gr, and see what happens (I like 135PF+), then do some careful accuracy work. I'd increase the charge before decreasing the OAL. I say that for two reasons. One, if the gun is running, I don't want to mess with it. Two, there is the possibility that shortening the OAL makes for non-linear increases in pressure...some folks report that based on pressure gun testing. Either way, the max load is still within limits, and especially so at the OAL longer than they used.

If you're making the PF you want, but not getting the accuracy you want, then you can play with OAL a bit to see if it helps....sort of working through it one step at a time. R,

[gm iprod]

For accuracy, OAL first. Then play with powder load.

But for PF, get a load that make PF then as Bart suggests dicker with the OAL to fine tune accuracy as long as it is making PF and 100% reliable.

[JAFO]

In your first post you didn't mention what your crimp measurement was, overcrimping could affect your accuracy.

Sorry about that. The loaded rounds are 0.3775" at the case mouth.

[RH45]

I bought some old Sierras from a guy CHEAP, and loaded them to 1.12, like I do Zeros, and in my M&P Pro the slide wouldn't close all the way so the ogive is definitely different than Zeros. I just ran them through my "open" gun.

[gm iprod]

Sierras are just taht little bit longer in the ogive so as you say you will load them shorter OAL, but they will look longer.

I have swiched between Zero and Sierra but the Sierra are just that little bit more accurate for big matches, just wish my wallet was just a little big bigger to accomodate my needs.

[hkguy]

i just started reloading 9mm. my first load i worked up was 124gr zero bullets (i found most of the bullets to be between 124.5gr and 124.7gr as well) with 4.1g of tightgroup with a col of 1.13. i am using winchester small pistol primers. i took them out to test them in about 30 degree weather. between my P30 and USPc i was able to get about 2 in groups at 10 yards, i had a couple of flyers but i think it was my fault. to me, recoil was similar to federal champion ammo if not slightly less. i also ran a few through my g17 and got decent results for just getting the gun and having next to zero trigger time.

[CocoBolo]

My loa for the P226 with 124gr Zero RN at 1.145 is 4.3gr of TiteGroup, in summer temprature this nets a 135-137pf for major matches. In colder weather I back it off a tenth or two.

In soft shooting loads with 124gr I prefer 3.9gr of N320. w/147gr JHP i use 3.2-3.3gr of Clays.

[gordonm1]

I tried 4.3 TG yesterday with 124 montanna gold bullets at 1.16 oal in my sig 220. This oal length very near rifling in barrel and near max length for the mags. Accuracy was best so far with most under 1". Time to chrono and shoot left-handed sissy style for function. Maybe try 4.2 also.

Then there's the 9mm 1911 spartan that's coming to load for...