M&P 9 PRO FTE (archives read)

[robzilla]

I did read the archives. I havnt been able to remove the extractor to clean the pad or where it contacts the inside of the slide. If I decide to replace the extractor, which extractor is better APEX or SSS(does it come with replacement pin)? I saw that they may need to be fitted, just wondering what is used to grind them down?

More Details:

It might be a coincidence but, I switched to titegroup recently and I am now having FTE's (124 gr with 4.2 TG OAL 1.100 PF~140). The round comes out about half way or so and the extractor lets go and tries to chamber another round. I don't know how much tension there should be on the extractor, but I can say I need to put a lot of pressure on the back of it to get it to let go of the rim. I took it apart to clean it and afterwards I noticed that the chamber was extremely dirty. I cleaned it, went and fired it, and again within a few rounds it is black and dirty again. When i cleaned the black off, I noticed that the chamber of the storm lake barrel has a cratch in it. It looks small but it is recessed enough that I can feel it when I run a toothpick over it. So, could this be the reason for the FTE's? Also, is my Storm Lake barrel ruined and how could it have gotten that scratch?

I know its a lot of questions, but if anyone can answer any of these for me it would be greatly appreciated. I am a teacher and I am also working on my masters in biology. That means that in about a week or so trips to the range will be very limited until spring break. So, please help me take some of the guess work out of this.

Thanks to all who help out,

Robert

[RH45]

Does it function well with factory ammo?

Although I haven't pulled, and cleaned my exractor yet, I know a lot of guys that had issues due to crud build up.

What kind of brass are you using? I prefer Starline, or, Winchester.A lot of brass has slightly different head sizes.

Your load is a little hotter than what I run, but, other than more recoil, it should be ok.

If your gun runs factory o.k., you clean your extractor, use good brass, and are still having issues, try making your ammo a little longer.

[robzilla]

Does it function well with factory ammo?

Although I haven't pulled, and cleaned my exractor yet, I know a lot of guys that had issues due to crud build up.

What kind of brass are you using? I prefer Starline, or, Winchester.A lot of brass has slightly different head sizes.

Your load is a little hotter than what I run, but, other than more recoil, it should be ok.

If your gun runs factory o.k., you clean your extractor, use good brass, and are still having issues, try making your ammo a little longer.

I have always run mixed brass. The ammo is a bit hot because that is the only way I could get it to group alright. If I cut down on velocity or lengthen them the groups open up alot. For about a year I had no problems and would run everything through it cheap steel, reloads, and factory. I tried light loads but couldnt group them and I didnt shoot them any faster. My splits at 7 yards have never been faster than .22s on average maybe .24-.26s. For about a year and 3 months not a single problem until now.

[RH45]

Does it function well with factory ammo?

Although I haven't pulled, and cleaned my exractor yet, I know a lot of guys that had issues due to crud build up.

What kind of brass are you using? I prefer Starline, or, Winchester.A lot of brass has slightly different head sizes.

Your load is a little hotter than what I run, but, other than more recoil, it should be ok.

If your gun runs factory o.k., you clean your extractor, use good brass, and are still having issues, try making your ammo a little longer.

I have always run mixed brass. The ammo is a bit hot because that is the only way I could get it to group alright. If I cut down on velocity or lengthen them the groups open up alot. For about a year I had no problems and would run everything through it cheap steel, reloads, and factory. I tried light loads but couldnt group them and I didnt shoot them any faster. My splits at 7 yards have never been faster than .22s on average maybe .24-.26s. For about a year and 3 months not a single problem until now.

If you've run it for a year, and haven't pulled the exracter to clean yet, I'd start there. From the guys I've talked to, if you have access to an arbor press to get the factory pin out, that's the easist. If you do a search, I'm pretty sure that there were some posts here about it too.

[robzilla]

Some more input please.

[midvalleyshooter]

Here is a You Tube video showing complete take down. Look at around the 5 minute area for extractor removal. Thanks to the Memphis Mechanic for the Vid:

Keith

[midvalleyshooter]

I have a question to add to Roberts. Say you were using a Weigand extractor tension gauge along with a trigger pull gauge, what weight should the M&P 9mm release at?

Weigand gauge set: http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.html

How to use it: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=10261/learn/1911_Auto_Extractor_Adjustment

Part of the text to set up a 1911:

Insert the Extractor Tension Gauge for the appropriate caliber between the extractor and the breech face directly where the case head would set. Line up the hole in the gauge with the firing pin hole. Attach a trigger pull gauge to the opposite end of the Extractor Tension Gauge. Pull the trigger pull gauge toward you so the Extractor Tension Gauge will be moved from between the extractor and the breech face. Read the tension on the scale at the moment the Extractor Tension Gauge begins to move toward you. The amount of pull required to move the Extractor Tension Gauge, expressed in ounces, is your extractor tension. Ideally, the tension should be between 25 to 28 ounces.

Thanks in advance,

Keith

Edited December 26, 2010 by midvalleyshooter

[DougCarden]

If this does it with regular factory ammo, then send it in to have the extractor checked...( I am a MP armorer...)

If it does this with your reloads, then add some crimp until there is no sharp edge on the front of the ammo. Your extracted case may be coming out the chamber fine and hitting the next case ( with too much case flare) and the extracted case is catching on the flared case mouth that didn't get enough crimp to take care of this.

Good luck,

DougC

[G-ManBart]

I don't know if the Apex or SSS extractor is better...they look very similar in the claw design from what I've seen. I pulled the stock extractor using a cut down punch and a big hammer (mounted the slide in a machinists vise with padded jaws)....one or two hits and it broke free easily. I relieved the pad on the stock extractor that contacts the slide by a few thousandths, and added the SSS extra power spring. While I had the stock extractor out I fit a SSS extractor that I bought with at the same time as the extra power spring. I fit the SSS version by using a fine stone, alternating top and bottom...take it slow and it's not difficult to get right. I decided to try the stock extractor with the slight mod, and new spring first, and it's run 100% ever since, so I haven't done live fire with the SSS version, although I did install it (didn't seat the pin fully) and hand cycled rounds to make sure it was fit okay...seemed to be okay.

Kenny said he was going to start supplying a replacement pin (maybe a roll pin) with the SSS extractor based upon a discussion I had with John Amidon about whether a replacement pin would be considered an external modification for Production division if it was a roll pin, rather than a solid pin. Going off memory, John said it would be considered legal if it was part of a replacement kit for the factory part...since the rules are worded something like that. It's probably nothing to worry about, but it's cheap insurance. R,

[robzilla]

Memphis: Great job on the vid. I didn't have the confidence to go that far into the dissasembly until I saw your vid.

DougCarden: I havn't shot factory ammo in over a year, I will give it a try. Great idea on the crimp. I hadn't thought of that and now that you say it, it makes sense. I measured crimp and I am between .376-.377. I measured WWB at .374-.375. Should I adjust down to WWB specs or should I go tighter? Also, if I go too tight on the crimp could it be possible that the round may get rammed in too far and the rim not catch on the edge of the chamber and instead make contact with the lands and grooves?

G-ManBart: I was able to remove the extractor. It was very dirty in there. I cleaned it up and took off about .003. I went out and it is still happening. Round starts to come out but then I guess the extractor lets go and the slide goes all the way back and tries to ram another round in. I will order the spring and probably the extractor. I looked up fine stone in midway and brownells and got way too many choices. Theres india, arkansas and bunch of others. Which one gets it done? After trying with factory ammo and diff. barrel, I will mess with the extractor a bit more. I will first try the new spring on the old extractor, then sand down the pad some more, and if still a no go then I will try to work with the new one. So, which stone and any suggestions?

Anyone: Could it be the scratch in the barrel. If it can help diagnose this prob let me know and I will try to get a picture of it. Also, should I try to correct the chamber issue? Would strom lake take the barrel and refinish the chamber or would I have to do it myself? Would smoothing out the chamber totally send accuracy out of whack or would it be negligible? One last thing, I keep hearing that polishing the chamber helps, but in thinking about this I can't help but think that after a few rounds the build up defeats the purpose of the smoothly polished chamber. Can someone help me make sense of this?

I know its a loaded post, but I would like to thank anyone that can contribute a little piece of the puzzle.

Thanks again,

Robert

[G-ManBart]

G-ManBart: I was able to remove the extractor. It was very dirty in there. I cleaned it up and took off about .003. I went out and it is still happening. Round starts to come out but then I guess the extractor lets go and the slide goes all the way back and tries to ram another round in. I will order the spring and probably the extractor. I looked up fine stone in midway and brownells and got way too many choices. Theres india, arkansas and bunch of others. Which one gets it done? After trying with factory ammo and diff. barrel, I will mess with the extractor a bit more. I will first try the new spring on the old extractor, then sand down the pad some more, and if still a no go then I will try to work with the new one. So, which stone and any suggestions?

Removing the material from the pad may not always help, but it did increase the tension I noted when sliding a case under the rim...so I wouldn't worry too much about that, but a little won't hurt anything.

As far as stones, I don't think it's too critical what type as long as it leaves a relatively smooth surface...any fine stone should work, but if I was buying one just for this project, I wouldn't spend too much...this diamond stone should work:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6098/Product/EZE_LAP_DIAMOND_HONE___STONE

[midvalleyshooter]

Robert here is a link to a thread I have read over on Calguns: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=300162

You may want to call Randy at Apex: http://www.apextactical.com/index.php

Keep us updated on how it turns out,

Keith

[want2race]

The M&P I'm using developed the exact same issue. I redressed the hook of the extractor, then removed a little from the pad too. I basically tuned the hook the same as I would a 1911 extractor. I removed a little from the front bevel since it was very close, if not actually touching the bevel on the case. Left the edges of the hook nice and sharp. After the work, the M&P has since returned to 100%. I was getting 3 to 4 FTE per match and it was quite upsetting.

If I remember right, it's a 5/64 roll pin to replace the straight pin.

[midvalleyshooter]

20+ pages of M&P discusion: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52771

Keith

[Dan Burwell]

I have a question to add to Roberts. Say you were using a Weigand extractor tension gauge along with a trigger pull gauge, what weight should the M&P 9mm release at?

Weigand gauge set: http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.html

How to use it: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=10261/learn/1911_Auto_Extractor_Adjustment

Part of the text to set up a 1911:

Insert the Extractor Tension Gauge for the appropriate caliber between the extractor and the breech face directly where the case head would set. Line up the hole in the gauge with the firing pin hole. Attach a trigger pull gauge to the opposite end of the Extractor Tension Gauge. Pull the trigger pull gauge toward you so the Extractor Tension Gauge will be moved from between the extractor and the breech face. Read the tension on the scale at the moment the Extractor Tension Gauge begins to move toward you. The amount of pull required to move the Extractor Tension Gauge, expressed in ounces, is your extractor tension. Ideally, the tension should be between 25 to 28 ounces.

Thanks in advance,

Keith

That tool will not work with M&Ps at all.

I have the best luck with recutting the factory extractor and using one of SSS extra power springs if the recut doesn't get it by itself.

[robzilla]

Update:

So, I fixed one problem and I am now having another. I put in the Apex extractor and a SSS spring. Every single round fired was ejected. Problem: some rounds are not feeding.

Specifics: I am shooting my reloads which I have shot thousands of and never had any problems before. When I look at the situation it looks like the rim is getting snagged by the bottom of the extractor. When I remove the round you can see where the extractor cuts into the rim where it first makes contact. Just to see, I took out the Storm Lake barrel and put back the factory original and it stopped happening. I want to be able to use the Storm Lake barrel like before. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Robert

[G-ManBart]

Probably just needs a little bit of rounding/chamfer/polish to let the rim slide under it. I would also expect the extractor spring to take a little bit of a set after a few more rounds, and that should help.

The difference between barrels is probably a difference in feed ramp profile. If the bullet hits sooner on one than the other, it will slightly change the orientation of the case rim to the extractor (slightly different angle). R,

Edited January 1, 2011 by G-ManBart

[JohnN]

Update:

So, I fixed one problem and I am now having another. I put in the Apex extractor and a SSS spring. Every single round fired was ejected. Problem: some rounds are not feeding.

Specifics: I am shooting my reloads which I have shot thousands of and never had any problems before. When I look at the situation it looks like the rim is getting snagged by the bottom of the extractor. When I remove the round you can see where the extractor cuts into the rim where it first makes contact. Just to see, I took out the Storm Lake barrel and put back the factory original and it stopped happening. I want to be able to use the Storm Lake barrel like before. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Robert

You might want to check with Randy but he advised me not to use an extra power spring with his extractor.

[Wilsoncreek]

Robert,

I am having the same troubles with FTE's on a Pro. I have the stock barrel in mine but also noticed three longitudinal scratches in the chamber, one is deep enough to feel easily with a sharp tool. I also wondered if that might be the source of my extraction failures. I have tried most other solutions listed in these forums. I have not changed out the extractor or spring. I felt that a Production gun should be designed to run indefinitely on factory ammo with field stripping and routine cleaning. Finally, after 4 FTE's in 4 stages last weekend I got fed up and called Smith. After a brief conversation with the CS folks its going back for warranty repair. Little nervous about that because I have a marvelous Burwell trigger job and don't want them messing with it. Hopefully they won't.

I luv the pistol and want to shoot it but not until I can get thru a stage without a gag. Hopefully they can fix the problem.

Dave

[Dan Burwell]

Little nervous about that because I have a marvelous Burwell trigger job and don't want them messing with it. Hopefully they won't.

Dave,

Don't do it send me the upper I'll get you back to running 100%.

[robzilla]

Update:

I put in a new regular power extractor spring with an apex extractor. I had to put in a little bevel on the bottom of the extractor. As I had mentioned in my last post I was having feeding issues. Now, if I let the slide drop under its normal spring tension the round seems to feed just fine. However, if I slowly hand cycle it, it sometimes hangs up. My OAL is 1.100. Is this too short? I havn't been able to get to the range to try live fire. Work and weather have prevented me from doing so.

[Wilsoncreek]

Robert,

Please excuse the hijack.

Dan, PM inbound.

Dave

[High Lord Gomer]

My OAL is 1.100. Is this too short?

What bullet are you using? I go anywhere from 1.125 with a MG 115 CMJ to 1.087 with a MG 115 JHP.

[robzilla]

Dave, no need to excuse yourself.

Gomer, I used to shoot Berry's 147s at 1.100 I just switched to Berry's 124 and I found that they group fairly well at 1.100 also. I also just got my first batch of 124 MG CMJs. I havn't had a chance to try these out yet.