Forward Falling Popper Substitution

[Skydiver]

As to clubs losing a big investment on their rearward falling steel....

The large majority of rear falling poppers can be modified to fall forward pretty easily. And... I would think that a forward falling popper would be much more consistent (and therefore fair to all) than a rear falling popper due to the way most forward falling poppers just need to be moved rearward a very small amount to release and let gravity do its job. Whether more fair of not they are surely safer......

One thing about gravity is that it works 24 hours a day and equally to every object...

But acceleration due to gravity varies from location to location. http://en.wikipedia....ravity_of_Earth

People shooting classifiers in Denver would see slower falling poppers than somebody in Death Valley. Probably humanly imperceptibly slower, but still the physics says slower. :-)

Edited December 25, 2010 by Skydiver

[Merlin Orr]

I stand corrected.....

[Seth]

As to clubs losing a big investment on their rearward falling steel....

The large majority of rear falling poppers can be modified to fall forward pretty easily. And... I would think that a forward falling popper would be much more consistent (and therefore fair to all) than a rear falling popper due to the way most forward falling poppers just need to be moved rearward a very small amount to release and let gravity do its job. Whether more fair of not they are surely safer......

One thing about gravity is that it works 24 hours a day and equally to every object...

But acceleration due to gravity varies from location to location. http://en.wikipedia....ravity_of_Earth

People shooting classifiers in Denver would see slower falling poppers than somebody in Death T. Probably humanly imperceptibly slower, but still the physics says slower. :-)

THAT'S AWESOME!!!! I sure like shooting at sea level! To heck with those slow falling Colorado poppers!

lol.

Meanwhile, I can't find anything in the rulebook or the classifier book about substitution..... Certainly a rear falling popper has certain advantages over a forward faller.

[G-ManBart]

But acceleration due to gravity varies from location to location. http://en.wikipedia....ravity_of_Earth

People shooting classifiers in Denver would see slower falling poppers than somebody in Death Valley. Probably humanly imperceptibly slower, but still the physics says slower. :-)

I vote that all classifiers with poppers be shot in Death Valley to count!

[Skydiver]

But acceleration due to gravity varies from location to location. http://en.wikipedia....ravity_of_Earth

People shooting classifiers in Denver would see slower falling poppers than somebody in Death Valley. Probably humanly imperceptibly slower, but still the physics says slower. :-)

I vote that all classifiers with poppers be shot in Death Valley to count!

And their rounds be chrono'd in the 100 degree + heat. Woe to those with inversely temperature sensitive powders. Oh, wait, I shoot with one of those powders. :-(

[wide45]

I've shot this classifier with both kinds of poppers, and it really did not make much difference. I don't think it's a significant problem.

[G-ManBart]

I've shot this classifier with both kinds of poppers, and it really did not make much difference. I don't think it's a significant problem.

So I guess it would be okay if clubs set up the targets a foot left, right, high or low....that's not significant either.

[Larry White]

Whats really needed here is a rule on driving down reardward falling poppers. Period. Its unsafe, a sure way to get rounds out of the range. Some places that may not matter either, but round out of the range are never a good thing.----------Larry

[G-ManBart]

Whats really needed here is a rule on driving down reardward falling poppers. Period. Its unsafe, a sure way to get rounds out of the range. Some places that may not matter either, but round out of the range are never a good thing.----------Larry

Pretty hard to make a call between someone driving one down intentionally, and someone making up a shot that they called borderline. I can't think of a way to make a rule that says only one hit per popper that would be possible to manage and keep fair.

The RO says "it was hit solidly, and was going to fall, one procedural for the extra shot"....shooter says "no, I hit it a little low/high and didn't think it was going to fall"....that would happen on every stage with poppers.

We can't have people hitting a popper, then waiting for it to fall to see whether they need to hit it again....won't work and goes against the nature of Comstock on steel.

Take it a step further, and if its "unsafe" to hit a popper as it falls, would that be considered and unsafe act and a mandatory DQ? If it's not safe, it would have to be. We can't issue a procedural for a safety violation...those are DQs. So now, we'd be DQing people because they put a second shot on a popper they thought wasn't hit solidly enough to fall. Bad idea all around...

[Merlin Orr]

An argument for a problem that should not exist.

Forward falling poppers. Period.

[Larry White]

It is a tough call, but as more and more ranges are incroached on there will be more tough calls. I never said anything about a procedural, the two places I have been that have this rule it gets you a trip home, I have seen it called once, it was challenged and it stood. Design and stage planing will leave you something else to shoot, you dont have to stand and wait. Standing and waiting is never a good thing, but someone a half mile down the road with a 9mm hp up beside the head is always a worse thing. I dont like this stuff either but its becomeing a reality and shooters are going to have to deal with it, either with rules or better range equip. Rearward falling poppers are a hazard if driven down and need to go away, it took me awhile to accept that but I got there. I know that will take time but the rules are the only answer until they are gone. And to keep the fairness the rules need to be the same everwhere.----------Larry

[Joe4d]

That is an awful cheap and lazy way to address the possible problem of a shot leaving the range off a rear falling popper. First there are no local rules in USPSA, if this was a USPSA match the Area director needs to be all over it. If the club was that concerned about it stop using rear falling poppers and spend the few dollars to switch them to forward falling. If shooting a target is unsafe the problem is with the match and club officials not the shooter.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Joe4d

[twodownzero]

It is a tough call, but as more and more ranges are incroached on there will be more tough calls. I never said anything about a procedural, the two places I have been that have this rule it gets you a trip home, I have seen it called once, it was challenged and it stood. Design and stage planing will leave you something else to shoot, you dont have to stand and wait. Standing and waiting is never a good thing, but someone a half mile down the road with a 9mm hp up beside the head is always a worse thing. I dont like this stuff either but its becomeing a reality and shooters are going to have to deal with it, either with rules or better range equip. Rearward falling poppers are a hazard if driven down and need to go away, it took me awhile to accept that but I got there. I know that will take time but the rules are the only answer until they are gone. And to keep the fairness the rules need to be the same everwhere.----------Larry

You need to make sure that your state section coordinator, at bare minimum, is aware of this. There are no local rules in USPSA.

[Larry White]

The last match I shot there that popper rule was in effect. It was a state open match, USPSA sacationed. Amidon approved, the AD was the MD and MV shot the match. I bet they had the rules screwed down pretty tight.--------Larry

[wide45]

I've shot this classifier with both kinds of poppers, and it really did not make much difference. I don't think it's a significant problem.

So I guess it would be okay if clubs set up the targets a foot left, right, high or low....that's not significant either.

It's not OK but many clubs do that. What's your point?

[G-ManBart]

I've shot this classifier with both kinds of poppers, and it really did not make much difference. I don't think it's a significant problem.

So I guess it would be okay if clubs set up the targets a foot left, right, high or low....that's not significant either.

It's not OK but many clubs do that. What's your point?

If it's not okay to set up a classifier with the targets off by a foot, why should it be okay to set one up with anything else different?

Whether it's a significant difference or not, they should be the same everywhere right? That's the goal, for classifiers....as reasonably identical as we can make them.

Further, I don't think a forward-falling popper is an insignificant difference. I know, for a fact, that I can double a popper with an Open gun faster than I can transition four poppers to the left or right (as in the stage I posted). Changing popper types changes the options that are available to the shooter. We shouldn't have a situation where one person shooting a classifier, at one club, has an option available that another shooter, at another club, doesn't have on the same classifier...that's all.

It's not like it would be some monumental change...heck, maybe make it so that any popper used on a classifier has to be forward-falling. That would allow clubs that mandate them to be in compliance, and worst-case scenario, some club might have to buy half a dozen forward-falling poppers. Maybe just mandate forward-falling only on the classifiers where they obscure other poppers/targets...can't be all that many of them. That would mean even if a club couldn't afford new poppers, they could just avoid those handful of classifiers. Lots of pretty easy ways to avoid having things done differently from one club to the next....

[b2alphaplease]

I've shot this classifier with both kinds of poppers, and it really did not make much difference. I don't think it's a significant problem.

So I guess it would be okay if clubs set up the targets a foot left, right, high or low....that's not significant either.

It's not OK but many clubs do that. What's your point?

If it's not okay to set up a classifier with the targets off by a foot, why should it be okay to set one up with anything else different?

Whether it's a significant difference or not, they should be the same everywhere right? That's the goal, for classifiers....as reasonably identical as we can make them.

Further, I don't think a forward-falling popper is an insignificant difference. I know, for a fact, that I can double a popper with an Open gun faster than I can transition four poppers to the left or right (as in the stage I posted). Changing popper types changes the options that are available to the shooter. We shouldn't have a situation where one person shooting a classifier, at one club, has an option available that another shooter, at another club, doesn't have on the same classifier...that's all.

It's not like it would be some monumental change...heck, maybe make it so that any popper used on a classifier has to be forward-falling. That would allow clubs that mandate them to be in compliance, and worst-case scenario, some club might have to buy half a dozen forward-falling poppers. Maybe just mandate forward-falling only on the classifiers where they obscure other poppers/targets...can't be all that many of them. That would mean even if a club couldn't afford new poppers, they could just avoid those handful of classifiers. Lots of pretty easy ways to avoid having things done differently from one club to the next....

I'm the MD of a range that requires forward falling poppers because bullet fragments leaving the range scared the hell out of the neighbors. It is what it is.

This classifier (Hillbillton drill) has two poppers partially obscured by other poppers. Like Cha-Lee said, the absolute fastest way to shoot this is to slip a shot over the shoulder of the front poppers, nail the rear popper and continue on. Forward falling or rearward falling poppers makes no difference. I did it once and scored 2 classes higher.

I shoot limited, so I don't see how anyone with a dot can possibly miss, especially at that short distance.

[G-ManBart]

I did it once and scored 2 classes higher.

I shoot limited, so I don't see how anyone with a dot can possibly miss, especially at that short distance.

It's really not about ability or equipment, it's about presenting an equal challenge/opportunity so it's the same at any club.

[Nik Habicht]

I did it once and scored 2 classes higher.

I shoot limited, so I don't see how anyone with a dot can possibly miss, especially at that short distance.

It's really not about ability or equipment, it's about presenting an equal challenge/opportunity so it's the same at any club.

Bart,

you're never going to get that, unless USPSA starts licensing steel targets, with specific construction standards.....

One of the clubs I frequent has poppers from at least three different manufacturers, in at least two different thicknesses -- none of those fall in anywhere near the same amount of time, so I can change the outcome of a classifier, based on which I pick to go where....

Realistically, I never get that choice -- because when steel is delivered I just get the next 2, 4, or 6 poppers to come off the steel trailer....

[G-ManBart]

I did it once and scored 2 classes higher.

I shoot limited, so I don't see how anyone with a dot can possibly miss, especially at that short distance.

It's really not about ability or equipment, it's about presenting an equal challenge/opportunity so it's the same at any club.

Bart,

you're never going to get that, unless USPSA starts licensing steel targets, with specific construction standards.....

One of the clubs I frequent has poppers from at least three different manufacturers, in at least two different thicknesses -- none of those fall in anywhere near the same amount of time, so I can change the outcome of a classifier, based on which I pick to go where....

Realistically, I never get that choice -- because when steel is delivered I just get the next 2, 4, or 6 poppers to come off the steel trailer....

Of course we're never going to get "perfect", but A) being able to drive down a popper and not being able to drive down a popper are pretty significant differences.

If a shooter at one club has an option that isn't available to another shooter, at another club, we're talking a major difference, and that simply isn't in the spirit of the rules.

Heck, it's as bigger difference than if a club said "we're out of Metric targets, so you'll have to shoot the classifier with Classic targets". Nobody would ever accept that, even though it wouldn't change the number of ways a shooter can shoot the stage.

It doesn't matter if there are better, faster, smarter ways to shoot the stage, or whether "it's never going to be perfect anyway", it's an easy, simple fix.

Seriously, how hard would it be to tweak the handful of classifiers where it would apply?

[wide45]

I don't buy that there is a real problem here.

If there is, the only real solution would be to eliminate the few classifiers with stacked poppers.

A redesign would not be acceptable if the old hit factors were retained.

[G-ManBart]

I don't buy that there is a real problem here.

If there is, the only real solution would be to eliminate the few classifiers with stacked poppers.

A redesign would not be acceptable if the old hit factors were retained.

It's not about buying anything or opining whether it's a "problem".

Either there is, or is not, a difference in the available ways to shoot the stage with different popper styles.

If my club uses forward-falling poppers (FYI they don't), I can't shoot the stage as many ways as someone at a club with traditional poppers can. That simply shouldn't exist in a classifier.

[wide45]

That simply shouldn't exist in a classifier.

That's simply your opinion.

I believe that popper style is a much smaller issue than the use of opaque walls verses the see through kind.

[G-ManBart]

That simply shouldn't exist in a classifier.

That's simply your opinion.

I believe that popper style is a much smaller issue than the use of opaque walls verses the see through kind.

Of course it's an opinion, but I'd say trying for standardization in classifiers is pretty much a given...actually, it's the basis of the entire classification system, not some random afterthought.

So, you would support just randomly allowing differences in classifier setup from club to club? Do you really think that's reasonable?

Even though this thread it about poppers, rather than opaque walls, it's an irrelevant point. Just because some other practice is a bigger problem (in your opinion) it has no bearing on whether something else should be corrected.

Edited January 2, 2011 by G-ManBart

[GrumpyOne]

Make that classifier Virginia count? You take a penalty for driving the popper down......