223 loads and testing for accuracy....

[Artsville]

Guys

Gonna start working on my 223 reloading in the next month or so.....i was wondering how everyone tests there accuracy on their reloads? I only shoot iron sights on my AR. In the beginning it will just be 55gr fmjbt probably over H335 powder.

Does one just sand bag the front and rear and shoot at 50yds? 75yds? 100yds?

Just wanted to hear how others judge their loads......

thnx

art

[RiggerJJ]

for load development, I shoot groups at 200 yards, use a scope, and use as much non-human influence on holding the gun as possible (I don't clamp it thou). sandbags are not enough, need to be able to hold the crosshairs on the target without any wiggle.

jj

[jmurch]

I'd add to that to take a single stage press out to the range and start with a load and shoot 10 rounds, load ten more +.2 grains and shoot them, etc. My experience doing this is that you at some point you'll start getting tighter 10 shot groups then at some point the 10 round groups will open up again.

Jeff

[Artsville]

I can't shoot 200yds at any local range around here. What is the next best plan of attack? I plan on working my load up from a minimum charge.

[45 Raven]

Try 26.5 grains of W748 powder under the 55 gr. Hornady V-Max bullet or 23.1 grains of H322 powder under the Hornady 60 gr. V-Max bullet. Both these loads are very, very accurate in a Colt Accurized HB rifle with 24" barrel, in a Colt HBAR with 20" barrel, and in a Colt 6920 with a 16" barrel.

If you are limited in range room, sight in your rifle to hit 1" below point of aim at 25 meters. That should place the bullet impact at about 1/2" high at 50 meters, approximately 2" high at 100 meters, and dead on at 200 meters.

You should be able to hold in the center of the kill zone and not have your bullet strike more than 2 1/2" above or 2 1/2" below your point of aim all the way out to 225 meters.

The easiest way to do this is to ensure you have your shots consistently falling into a group with a center 1" below your aiming point at 25 meters, then check all the other distances for fine tuning. There shouldn't be many excessive adjustments. Do the math to convert this information to yards from meters.

Good luck.

Edited December 22, 2010 by 45 Raven

[kamikaze1a]

Use basic (safe) loading procedures. Start low and work your way up in small increments. Check your brass/primers after each loading watching for pressure signs.

For H335 with a 55gr bullet, 23gr or so should be a good starting point and increase in about 0.2gr increments. I'm at 24.7gr and happy with that load but worked my way up to that load. Check your brass and primers for pressure signs with each adjustment and shoot at a range you can group well. OAL length can make a difference so if you want to minimize your groups, experiment with length, bullet crimp (or no crimp), primers, brass, bullet and powder. Good idea to back off the charge with any major changes and work your way back up. Not something I/we always practice but it's still a good idea.

With iron sights, 50yds would be a good load testing distance. Once you get to about 2800fps or so, zero at 50yds will be an inch or two high at 100 and just about zero at 200.

[Artsville]

thnx guys....do most aim for a velocity of 2800fps.....pf of about 155? Any ideas on 150yds or less what velocity would be needed? That is my general plinking range?

[pjb45]

I am not even close to being an expert. I posted a bunch on my starting to load for .223 on my 1050. You might check there. We have a 100 yard concrete tunnel at our range. I use an IOR 1.5-8x scope with a bipod and sometimes something under my hand or the butt to steady the rifle a little bit more.

I get excellent groups. Later, when the wind was dead I went to our long range and validated the accuracy.

100 yards is a nice measuring stick. It is nice to validate at longer distances.

I used the following website as my guide. It did not take much to find the right load for my gun. Everybody has their favorite powder. I use VV for everything and I am very pleased with it.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/rifle.asp

[jmurch]

If you can't do 200 i'd do fifty. If you look at any ballistics program you'll see that 50 and 200 are about the same as far as zeros go.

Jeff

Edited December 23, 2010 by jmurch

[Artsville]

If you can't do 200 i'd do fifty. If you look at any ballistics program you'll see that 50 and 200 are about the same as far as zeros go.

Jeff

Yes this was my understanding from all of the different ballistics programs....

[Artsville]

I use VV for everything and I am very pleased with it.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/rifle.asp

I am a big VV fan for pistol and will probably work some VV powder into this but for now since first 223 reloads i will stay a little more mainstream.

thnx

art

[CocoBolo]

I use 50 yard and 100 yard and a bench rest for testing groups. While my expierence loading .223 is limited I did find that the volume of powder can have profound effect on POI and Grouping a couple of .1 either way and it goes from great to horrible. I started out with a recommendation from a guy at Hornady, why not I was using thier bullet and loader he told me 28.1gr of BLC2 with 55gr bullet, I cranked out a 100 they shot and a only a few stuck in the gun but darn where the heck did that bullet go? I retracked started at the minimum and loaded 10 rounds, then added .2 another 10 and so on thru the range. I found that 27.1gr was the magic for good groups and poi matched good factory ammo. This result could be very gun specific, and I think it is because after adding a comp I had to change the load to 27.4gr to get back to the sub moa group. Don't load 28.1gr its too hot for some of the range brass you picked up.

[jmurch]

I have had the most consistant results (40 degrees here in the winter 115 in the summer) with Varget. I use 24.3, Rem 7 1/2, 77hpbt, LC.

Jeff

[RiggerJJ]

When shoting for groups in load development, use at least 100 yards, but I think 200 is better. At 100 yards the differences in the loads will not be as apparent as they will be at 200. Load development can be done at 100, you just have to inspect the data more closely because the group sizes will be 1/2 of what they would be at 200. Also remember if you are planning on shooting out to 400, these differences will quadruple. Once you get the load narrowed down, checking things at 400 just to be sure is a good idea.

When initially setting up a scope, by all means us a shorter distance (25-50 yds) to get on paper, but load development and initial sight in of a scope are two different things.

jj

Edited December 23, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[kamikaze1a]

thnx guys....do most aim for a velocity of 2800fps.....pf of about 155? Any ideas on 150yds or less what velocity would be needed? That is my general plinking range?

If you are shooting matches or require making minor with 55gr, 2800fps a good number. That velocity or a bit higher allows a 50/200yd zero whether plinking or for competition...

As for what distance you should use for working up your loads, since you said "you only shoot iron sights", stick with 50yds...

[RiggerJJ]

Why would you use only 50 yds and iron sights for load development or "working up your load"? The whole reason for load development is to find the most accurate load for your rifle. Using iron sights and only 50 yds is adding two outside factors that have nothing to do with the load you are testing; iron sights are hard to put on a small target at distance for every shot (duplication of aim point), and at 50yds you possibly will not see small differences between the loads' grouping.

Use a scope, use a rest that can duplicate aiming point, and do it at at 200yds. Then you will see exactly which load actually is the most accurate by the size of the groups. If you shoot irons, fine. once you get the most accurate load for your rifle, take the scope off and put the irons back on, sight it in and go.

jj

[kamikaze1a]

Why would you use only 50 yds and iron sights for load development or "working up your load"? The whole reason for load development is to find the most accurate load for your rifle. Using iron sights and only 50 yds is adding two outside factors that have nothing to do with the load you are testing; iron sights are hard to put on a small target at distance for every shot (duplication of aim point), and at 50yds you possibly will not see small differences between the loads' grouping.

Use a scope, use a rest that can duplicate aiming point, and do it at at 200yds. Then you will see exactly which load actually is the most accurate by the size of the groups. If you shoot irons, fine. once you get the most accurate load for your rifle, take the scope off and put the irons back on, sight it in and go.

jj

Because he said he only shoots iron sights... If he says he shoots iron sights only, I take that to mean he does not have/use/choose to use a scope. Since that is the case, if he tries to work up loads, accuracy or rather consistent groups at 100yds would be difficult with iron. Say you plan to shoot a 200yd match. Would you work up new loads at 200? I wouldn't. I would shoot groups at 100 and once I got a consistent load, move to 200 to confirm the load.

Once he gets it to group and zero'd at 50, he'll know that from 50-200 POI should be within 6" out to 200 no matter what sights he is using.

Edited December 28, 2010 by kamikaze1a

[RiggerJJ]

It makes no difference what kind of sighting device you use for load development, in fact you could not use any sighting device at all. Just clamp the gun in a fancy machine rest and shoot groups. In load development you are looking for the best bullet/case/powder/primer combo for accuracy you can get with your barrel, it has nothing to do with sights, and using longer ranges like 200 shows the most deviations in the groups. I suggested using a scope because it is easier to hold the same aim point with a scope at 200.

For example, if you are getting 1 moa groups with a certain load, at 50yds thats only a 1/2 inch group, but at 200 its 2 inches. to bring the example down even further, if you are getting a 1/2 inch group at 200, its a very tight single hole at 50, not as easy to tell the difference between different groups that are stepped up in 1/2 gn incriments, such as getting 1moa with a load, add 1/2 gn powder and get 1.1 moa. That is a difference you probably won't be able to see at 50yds, but will be quite evident at 200yds. plus, unless you are not planning on shooting past 50 yards I think I would want to know the group size at longer ranges, 200, 300, and even 400. most times when developing loads one brings several loads to check, such as 10 rounds each of 23gns, 23.5gns, 24gns, 24.5gns, 25gns, 25.5 gns powder with one type of bullet...

once you settle in on the most accurate load, put on the sighting device you plan on using and sight it in using whatever method you choose. Starting at 50yds to get on paper is a pretty standard practice, then go to the longer ranges, but load development should be done at at least 200yds with a scope unless a expensive machine rest of some type is used to hold the gun in the same exact aim point.

jj

[kamikaze1a]

It makes no difference what kind of sighting device you use for load development, in fact you could not use any sighting device at all. Just clamp the gun in a fancy machine rest and shoot groups. In load development you are looking for the best bullet/case/powder/primer combo for accuracy you can get with your barrel, it has nothing to do with sights, and using longer ranges like 200 shows the most deviations in the groups. I suggested using a scope because it is easier to hold the same aim point with a scope at 200.

For example, if you are getting 1 moa groups with a certain load, at 50yds thats only a 1/2 inch group, but at 200 its 2 inches. to bring the example down even further, if you are getting a 1/2 inch group at 200, its a very tight single hole at 50, not as easy to tell the difference between different groups that are stepped up in 1/2 gn incriments, such as getting 1moa with a load, add 1/2 gn powder and get 1.1 moa. That is a difference you probably won't be able to see at 50yds, but will be quite evident at 200yds. plus, unless you are not planning on shooting past 50 yards I think I would want to know the group size at longer ranges, 200, 300, and even 400. most times when developing loads one brings several loads to check, such as 10 rounds each of 23gns, 23.5gns, 24gns, 24.5gns, 25gns, 25.5 gns powder with one type of bullet...

once you settle in on the most accurate load, put on the sighting device you plan on using and sight it in using whatever method you choose. Starting at 50yds to get on paper is a pretty standard practice, then go to the longer ranges, but load development should be done at at least 200yds with a scope unless a expensive machine rest of some type is used to hold the gun in the same exact aim point.

jj

I am not disputing the virtues of using a scope when working up your loads because I agree that it would be best. But he did say he only shoots iron...

My point is, he is not using a scope and at 50yds with iron sights, the groups will probably look like a 100yd group with a scope. If he used 100yds, his groups would probably be several MOA. So, he needs to work at a distance that is practical to his setup. Perhaps you can shoot usable groups at 100yds with iron sights but I don't think the average shooter can...nor can I. For me, I would use 50yds for load testing with iron sights.

[Artsville]

I am not disputing the virtues of using a scope when working up your loads because I agree that it would be best. But he did say he only shoots iron...

My point is, he is not using a scope and at 50yds with iron sights, the groups will probably look like a 100yd group with a scope. If he used 100yds, his groups would probably be several MOA. So, he needs to work at a distance that is practical to his setup. Perhaps you can shoot usable groups at 100yds with iron sights but I don't think the average shooter can...nor can I. For me, I would use 50yds for load testing with iron sights.

Yeah best would be about 2-3 moa at 100yds and irons w factory pmc. I can group well but not tight.

[RiggerJJ]

My point is that at 50yds and iron sights, there will be no way to see which load is the most accurate...He says his best groups at 100 (and the results at 50 would be the same) are 2-3 moa with irons, so no way could he use irons sights at 100yds or even 50yds to determine a most accurate load.

He will not be able to see the subtle differences between a load that is shooting 1/2moa, and another load that is shooting 2 1/2moa because of two reasons; you cannot keep the gun on the same aimpoint, and at 50 yards the load differences will be just that, subtle.

Artsville,

Shoot load development groups at 200 (or 100 if thats the longest you can get), and use the least amount of human influence as possible with regards to keeping the rifle on the same aimpoint. either clamp it into a machine rest, or use a scope and a whole bunch of sandbags. when you are aiming make sure there is NO wiggle!

Thats the way to get the most accurate load combo. It makes no difference what kind of sights are going to be used after the load development is done. Borrow a scope and/or a fancy rest, figure out the load, THEN put your irons back on. you will know the load you are shooting is the most accurate, then all you have to do is aim at the target and squeeze the trigger...

jj - (just another iron sight shooter)

[kamikaze1a]

Well, to each his own. As I stated, for my load testing, I would use 50yds... The op said he get's 2-3moa at 100ys so he should see about moa at 50 and I would think that should give him a pretty good idea how the load was performing for the most part. So....I'm not saying 100yds is wrong, but for my testing, with iron's, I would use 50yds. I hope all this back and forth answered your question artsville.

Good shooting to all!