2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[wideerhunter]

Jesse,

I think this topic requires that another video be made!

I do find it funny that people are seriously arguing with Kurt about anything related to matches....haven't they seen him shoot or attend one of his matches? Haven't ya'll see 3 Gun Nation or heard about his classes? What's next...teaching Jerry how to shoot a revolver!

[1chota]

i shot the Hobbs, NM local 3 gun match sattidy. i believe it was their 2nd one to hold. the first was a wounded warrior benefit match which had a great turn out. over 100. sattidy's match had 43 shooters. pretty good turn out for a local match. it was 5 stages, 3 of which were multi-gun and two were one firearm only. longest shot was 225 yds. cool and breezy (read windy) weather. they had some drop turners, and falling targets, some really fast swingers and enough 'don't shoot' targets to make it interesting.

with local clubs like this stepping up, we should see more attendance at other matches. Roswell, NM gun club is in the process of adding berms so they can host local 3 gun matches also.

[Stlhead]

Jesse,

I think this topic requires that another video be made!

I do find it funny that people are seriously arguing with Kurt about anything related to matches....haven't they seen him shoot or attend one of his matches? Haven't ya'll see 3 Gun Nation or heard about his classes? What's next...teaching Jerry how to shoot a revolver!

No one is presuming to teach anyone how to shoot, we are discussing what we feel are appropriate targets, and the best way to score them. I am willing to bet that Kurt will not shed a single tear over my opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) differing from his. Even seeing the man shoot with my own eyes is not enough to cause me to blindly agree with everything he says. But, you do raise a valid point, I have not seen 3 Gun Nation or taken one of his classes, but I am not sure that doing one or both of these would sway my opinion either. I still think that we should get to shoot at flying clays.

[abn-rgr]

people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.

That's me!

I agree with this point completely. However, I think Chuck is failing to realize something. If USPSA is truly trying to bring people over to USPSA 3 gun, why have maj/min?? How many USPSA pistol shooters have a 308 laying around or better yet, some wildcat cartridge??? I would say not many. How many have an AR in 223 laying around? I would say quite a few. Wouldnt no power factor attract quite a few more people?? IMGA already has classes to award hi power, its called Heavy Metal. Just my .02

[Chuck Anderson]

people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.

That's me!

I agree with this point completely. However, I think Chuck is failing to realize something. If USPSA is truly trying to bring people over to USPSA 3 gun, why have maj/min?? How many USPSA pistol shooters have a 308 laying around or better yet, some wildcat cartridge??? I would say not many. How many have an AR in 223 laying around? I would say quite a few. Wouldnt no power factor attract quite a few more people?? IMGA already has classes to award hi power, its called Heavy Metal. Just my .02

Because the PF is much more relevant with pistols than with rifles. How many people use Major rifle even at USPSA events. 1% maybe? Outside of HM which requires it of course. Everyone is using minor rifle. But the majority of USPSA pistol shooters are going to have a Limited or Open gun in a Major caliber. The majority of the time sucking targets with rifle are steel anyway. PF has no effect on this. Not so with the pistol. So the question remains, do we want to court existing USPSA members to start 3 Gun, attract IMGA shooters to try USPSA 3 Gun, or attract people that have never been involved in the action shooting sports.

BTW, my personal preference is for straight time plus, not Hit Factor, not Horner, just straight up time plus. The one advantage I can see with Horner is the ability to scale stages for points. Not keen on it being solely based on the number of guns used. I can definitely see having a higher point value on a stage that takes 150 seconds for the first place shooter to complete as opposed to the 15 second stage. But I can also see that my personal opinion might not be what is best for the sport. That said, given my choice I'd rather include a couple scoring options in the final rules. Allow the MD to pick his choice and post it ahead of time. USPSA match 1 shot Horner, USPSA match 2 shot Hit Factor, USPSA match 3 shot Time Plus.

[Jack T]

people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.

That's me!

I agree with this point completely. However, I think Chuck is failing to realize something. If USPSA is truly trying to bring people over to USPSA 3 gun, why have maj/min?? How many USPSA pistol shooters have a 308 laying around or better yet, some wildcat cartridge??? I would say not many. How many have an AR in 223 laying around? I would say quite a few. Wouldnt no power factor attract quite a few more people?? IMGA already has classes to award hi power, its called Heavy Metal. Just my .02

++++++1

Keep it simple. No major/minor in Multi-gun. I am a huge fan of the original time plus scoring, two hits to neutralize or one "A". I get tired of people saying it doesn't promote accuracy, which is BS. If you can shoot A's, then shoot A's, the scoring system is not going to make you a better shooter. Stage design, props, reduced distance targets, hard cover, etc, can be utilized for the degree of shot difficulty. These are not meant to be Sniper/Bulls Eye Matches. Keep it fast, practical and fun!!

Jack

Edited October 31, 2011 by Jack T

[Jack T]

My factor ammo from Walmart barely made major out if a Glock 35. Averaged 165.5. If u can barely make major with ammo off the shelf something is really wrong.

So you went to a National Championship match with stuff you bought at Walmart and it almost didn't make power factor. There's something wrong here, but I think it's more someone showing up for a major match with untested equipment. If someone went to the pistol nationals with ammo that didn't meet declared power factor that's on the shooter. Why should this match be different? You shot a .40, which I'm assuming you don't for IMGA. You must have known you needed to make PF right?

So here's another sticking point. Who is USPSA trying to attract with MultiGun? New members from IMGA matches, or give existing USPSA members another format to shoot. If it's the former, yes we should do away with PF in the matches. If it's the latter than it makes sense to have commonality with our most popular and relevant divisions. There are a lot of folks talking about the "explosion" of 3 gun matches. Even with the dramatic increase in major matches there are likly under 1000 people nationwide competing in these big matches. I know I see a lot of the same faces at each one I go to. What's missing from 3 Gun is the local match. It's harder to get people involved for their first match when you tell them it's 1000 miles away and has a $300.00 entry fee. Develop the structure for the local matches and hopefully two things will happen. More people will participate overall and some of the pressure on major matches might dissipate. (No guarantee on the latter but I've talked to a lot of people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.)

With all due respect, this is part of the problem with USPSA Major/minor.

(Hypothetical) I am an experienced shooter, but new to USPSA, just bought an STI Edge in .40, (or a Glock 35). Why can't I go buy factory Winchester .40 and shoot a major match (Area/Nationals) and not have to worry about making what you guys call Major Power Factor? So what are you telling me? What do I need to do to be able to compete in this sport in Limited or Tac/Ops Division? So now I have to go buy a chrono and probably re-loading equipment to be able to play?

Years ago, factory ammunition was automatically considered major PF in some of the Area Matches I had been to. Quite a few years ago, don't really know what happened as I have been in and out of the sport for over 30 years.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jack T

[Mike P]

IMO USPSA, and the other action shooting organisation use an artificially low PF, even for pistol.

As far a clays flippers go, I like them but understand the problem with consistency. Electric sporting clays traps are pretty darn consistent though and can be programmed(some of them) to launch birds at a specific rate. Even at that, you'd still have the issue of scoring breaks.

[Jesse Tischauser]

My factor ammo from Walmart barely made major out if a Glock 35. Averaged 165.5. If u can barely make major with ammo off the shelf something is really wrong.

So you went to a National Championship match with stuff you bought at Walmart and it almost didn't make power factor. There's something wrong here, but I think it's more someone showing up for a major match with untested equipment. If someone went to the pistol nationals with ammo that didn't meet declared power factor that's on the shooter. Why should this match be different? You shot a .40, which I'm assuming you don't for IMGA. You must have known you needed to make PF right?

So here's another sticking point. Who is USPSA trying to attract with MultiGun? New members from IMGA matches, or give existing USPSA members another format to shoot. If it's the former, yes we should do away with PF in the matches. If it's the latter than it makes sense to have commonality with our most popular and relevant divisions. There are a lot of folks talking about the "explosion" of 3 gun matches. Even with the dramatic increase in major matches there are likly under 1000 people nationwide competing in these big matches. I know I see a lot of the same faces at each one I go to. What's missing from 3 Gun is the local match. It's harder to get people involved for their first match when you tell them it's 1000 miles away and has a $300.00 entry fee. Develop the structure for the local matches and hopefully two things will happen. More people will participate overall and some of the pressure on major matches might dissipate. (No guarantee on the latter but I've talked to a lot of people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.)

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need. Us new shooters don't like handing over $6 of ammo on top of the $300 entry fee.

With all due respect, consistency within the sports is a lame argument.

New shooters would be shooting production 9mm guns most of the time so theoretically they will all shoot minor anyways.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Charles Bond]

Chuck maybe it is a regional thing but our USPSA clubs in area 6 have plently of local three gun matches. Many of them hold them on the 5th Saturday which makes for 4 per year. But the local clubs really lack any incentive for doing so. They work harder to do this but yet they do not get credit for mission count and the only real USPSA "large" match is the MG nationals and despite the fact it is a major match by USPSA standards, it fails to live up to the standards set yearly by many of the other independent matches. The bottom line is that if you live in the east and want to go to a major in the western US, your more likely to be drawn to one of the independent matches with your travel dollars.

And if I have heard it once I have heard it 50 times, local matches had rather use 3 gun rules rather than MG rules because the set up and scoring and rules are so much easier.

[abn-rgr]

people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.

That's me!

I agree with this point completely. However, I think Chuck is failing to realize something. If USPSA is truly trying to bring people over to USPSA 3 gun, why have maj/min?? How many USPSA pistol shooters have a 308 laying around or better yet, some wildcat cartridge??? I would say not many. How many have an AR in 223 laying around? I would say quite a few. Wouldnt no power factor attract quite a few more people?? IMGA already has classes to award hi power, its called Heavy Metal. Just my .02

Because the PF is much more relevant with pistols than with rifles. How many people use Major rifle even at USPSA events. 1% maybe? Outside of HM which requires it of course. Everyone is using minor rifle. But the majority of USPSA pistol shooters are going to have a Limited or Open gun in a Major caliber. The majority of the time sucking targets with rifle are steel anyway. PF has no effect on this. Not so with the pistol. So the question remains, do we want to court existing USPSA members to start 3 Gun, attract IMGA shooters to try USPSA 3 Gun, or attract people that have never been involved in the action shooting sports.

BTW, my personal preference is for straight time plus, not Hit Factor, not Horner, just straight up time plus. The one advantage I can see with Horner is the ability to scale stages for points. Not keen on it being solely based on the number of guns used. I can definitely see having a higher point value on a stage that takes 150 seconds for the first place shooter to complete as opposed to the 15 second stage. But I can also see that my personal opinion might not be what is best for the sport. That said, given my choice I'd rather include a couple scoring options in the final rules. Allow the MD to pick his choice and post it ahead of time. USPSA match 1 shot Horner, USPSA match 2 shot Hit Factor, USPSA match 3 shot Time Plus.

I guess my point is a new 3 gunner is more apt to buy a $500 glock 9mm to compete in 3 gun before he will buy a $1000 plus 308 rifle.

[Jack T]

I know I am not going to endear myself to some people with this comment, I apologize, but this is the way I see it.

One of the major problems with the Multi-Gun Nationals, as it has been mentioned in earlier posts, is the lack of continuity from venue to venue. The wheel gets re-invented every time.

This is a leadership problem, and should never have happened, with proper leadership/oversight from the top.

Love our USPSA President like the little brother I never had, but the one man who has the knowledge/experience and should be overseeing every facet of the Multi-Gun Nationals and could have established this continuity during his tenure as President, is delegating his responsibility to someone else.

Multi-gun is/was a fledgling dynamic of USPSA and has not received the attention it needed to get better. The lessons learned get repeated from year to year with no resolution.

Bottom line, the USPSA President needs to be completely immersed in all aspects of the Nationals as a HANDS ON Match Director from start to finish. Not delegating their responsibility, so they can shoot the match. This also creates a conflict of interest.

I see this as shirking ones primary elected responsibility for their own purpose/gain/enjoyment at the detriment of the members.

With the resources USPSA has at it's disposal, the US Multi-gun Nationals should be the match by which all others are judged!

PS: I believe MV is the best man for the job to do this, and I support him 100% if he chooses to do so. Just gotta shake things up a bit every now and then or complacency sets in.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jack T

[shred]

FWIW, WWB .40 ammo from Wal Mart varies drastically in PF box-to-box. I had some go barely 160 PF and some boxes go 180+ PF.

[boomfab]

nm

Edited November 1, 2011 by boomfab

[smokshwn]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

[Nuke8401]

I do find it funny that people are seriously arguing with Kurt about anything related to matches....haven't they seen him shoot or attend one of his matches? Haven't ya'll see 3 Gun Nation or heard about his classes? What's next...teaching Jerry how to shoot a revolver!

With that line of thinking there would be no forward progress. We would still be stuck on inventing the wheel. Sometimes a new outside look can result in significant improvement, take the Glock for example. Yes value should be placed on those with successful experience but if we never looked for new/different ways to do things we would be done-done. Jerry M is a great example of someone who is always changing, looking for different techniques/equipment to improve.

I know I am not going to endear myself to some people with this comment, I apologize, but this is the way I see it................

Jack T, your are not the only one that has come to this conclusion.

David E.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Nuke8401

[Charles Bond]

Jack T: you make a series of very valid points that apply not only to the MG Nationals but all the Nationals. But after 12 years of the same old problem, USPSA needs a leader who will insure that the lessons of the past do not repeat in the future by acting as the hands on match director for which you make a most compelling case.

[Jesse Tischauser]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

You don't need a chrono and incorrect ballistics program to know your rifle ballistics. You can actually shoot bullets at targets to know where your bullets go. I learned that on this here forum! Lol!!!

The cheap ammo ain't cheap which is my point. The chrono is a waste of money in 3 gun. A slightly softer shooting pistol at 165.0 power factor would not have made a difference over my 165.5. I still would have finished 2nd on the all pistol stage.

What if the National level is a match held at your local club? Are u saying newbies should stay away because they don't have a chrono and have to shoot factory ammo?

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

Furthermore the way the ammo is collected for chrono was ridiculous! If someone was intentionally shooting SASS loads for less recoil or whatever they could have easily had 10 rounds of major ammo in their bag to hand over for chrono.

If you're just looking to catch the shooter that is 1-5 PF below the minimum because his powder drop got screwed up or his chrono at home reads high it's a waste.

If u feel the chrono is mandatory to keep people honest then do random checks and collect the ammo from the mags immediately following their run before they even get off the stage.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Because of that you want to get rid of the target from all of the major 3 gun matches? So no thrown clays in RM3G? No thrown clays in SMM3G? No thrown clays in Ironman? No thrown clays in the Nationals?

What if we keep the flippers and use a target that will shatter like glass disks. No more golden BB. I hit breaks the target and we all get to keep enjoying the flying targets. Now who's gonna be the one that gets rich making these glass disk targets?

[Mike P]

Collecting ammo after a run, or other random methods has been done in the other pistol sport. Really though, those inclined to fudge will find a way. Better to just do away with PF altogether, pistol only matches too.

Not HM though, there it should be raised.

[Jack T]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

No, this is not what it is/should be about. Yes, if you want to compete at the upper levels of competition you WILL have all the equipment (in time) necessary to accomplish your goals.

But, it should NOT be necessary to compete. The majority of the people who currently or want to shoot in this sport will never place in the top 10 of an event, they just want to shoot and have fun.

The guy without the chrono and reloading equipment took 5th place at the Nationals in Tac Optics and just won Tac Optics at Ark Multi gun against some great shooters. So how is all that high cost sh@t working out for the rest of you? Makes me wonder how many potentially world class shooters have avoided participating in the sport because of the complexity of the rules.

Major Power Factor should go away. That was the attitude of shooting a "Mans" gun during the evolution of the sport. A full power .45 with enough recoil to give you tendonitis. I grew up during that era and I know the attitude. All about stopping power, blah, blah, blah.

The sport has evolved past that. It is now a game of speed shooting and the power factor should reflect that. As long as you can knock down the steel, you are good to go.

Keep Major PF for single stack, heavy metal, etc.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jack T

[Jack T]

Opinion:

Maximum rifle distance should be kept under 300 yards. Weather and time become too big a factor when you go out past 300, as does the practicality of the weapons system we are using.

Yeah, it can be fun shooting 500 yard targets, unless you are the first squad to shoot the stage in the morning with the sun in your eyes and 30 MPH winds. You have lost the match on the first stage as you can not make up the points deficit during the match. Or, the match is running late and your squad is shooting at dusk.

I go to these matches to compete on an equal stage. If I want to have fun, I will stay home and play.

You gotta take the good with the bad, has no place in event management. All aspects should be taken into account and make it an equal heads up competition.

Keep it manageable for inclement weather and time over runs.

I am a big fan of bringing back the Manually Operated Rifle (MOR) events and run a long range course of fire (sniper match)after the main match while the scores are being compiled, etc. You can even include the gas guns now since the accuracy is so much better these days. Make it a cash pay in with 100% cash pay out to the winner. If distance does not permit, then know how to set up a reduced distance course. Terry Cross told me some of the most fun/difficult sniper competitions he has shot were the reduced distance courses.

The MOR matches were always an after thought at the Nationals, and again, did not get the attention or dedicated individuals to set it up and manage it. So they just kinda went away. With proper leadership and a take charge individual, these matches could become very popular.

If you don't have access to a range over 100 yards, it really sucks to go shoot a match out to 400/500 and be competitive without being able to verify your equipment/ballistics.

I have seen too many matches where the outcome has been determined on a long range rifle course of fire. Generally this tends to cater to a select few individuals who have the training and access to the facilities for long range rifle shooting and the weather played in their favor (winds/light). Also, if you know the weather conditions for a specific area/terrain, the squading/time of shooting can be manipulated in favor of certain squads.

Gotta stay balanced in all aspects. The matches should be challenging to the top shooters without intimidating the beginner/intermediate shooter.

Jack

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jack T

[Mike P]

Opinion:

Maximum rifle distance should be kept under 300 yards. Weather and time become too big a factor when you go out past 300, as does the practicality of the weapons system we are using.

Yeah, it can be fun shooting 500 yard targets, unless you are the first squad to shoot the stage in the morning with the sun in your eyes and 30 MPH winds. You have lost the match on the first stage as you can not make up the points deficit during the match. Or, the match is running late and your squad is shooting at dusk.

I go to these matches to compete on an equal stage. If I want to have fun, I will stay home and play.

You gotta take the good with the bad, has no place in event management. All aspects should be taken into account and make it an equal heads up competition.

Keep it manageable for inclement weather and time run overs.

I am a big fan of bringing back the Manually Operated Rifle (MOR) events and run a long range course of fire (sniper match)after the main match while the scores are being compiled, etc. You can even include the gas guns now since the accuracy is so much better these days. Make it a cash pay in with 100% cash pay out to the winner. If distance does not permit, then know how to set up a reduced distance course. Terry Cross told me some of the most fun/difficult sniper competitions he has shot were the reduced distance courses.

If you don't have access to a range over 100 yards, it really sucks to go shoot a match out to 400/500 and be competitive without being able to verify your equipment/ballistics.

I have seen too many matches where the outcome has been determined on a long range rifle course of fire. Generally this tends to cater to a select few individuals who have the training and access to the facilities for long range rifle shooting and the weather played in their favor (winds/light). Also, if you know the weather conditions for a specific area/terrain, the squading/time of shooting can be manipulated in favor of certain squads.

Gotta stay balanced in all aspects. The matches should be challenging to the top shooters without intimidating the beginner/intermediate shooter.

Jack

See this year's Pro-Am.

[Flexmoney]

Collecting ammo after a run, or other random methods has been done in the other pistol sport. Really though, those inclined to fudge will find a way. Better to just do away with PF altogether, pistol only matches too.

Not HM though, there it should be raised.

So...do away with power factor, because of cheaters? !!?