Battering in 1911, or 2011

[fastarget]

As I work to tune my guns with different/lighter springs to match my loads, I did a search regarding frame battering did much reading but would like to see pictures of the damage so as not to confuse it for wear and tear on gun or finish....

Would someone be willing to post photographs of the areas that have suffered damage so as to know what to look for each time the gun is serviced? A picture thread would be appreciated by many.

[Pro2AInPA]

I'd like more info on what to look for as well. I really like the feel of light recoil springs in my guns but I don't want to cause any damage by going too light.

[soaringf22]

do you use a shok buff they will help avoid that batter

[steel1212]

You'll throw out that shok buff when it comes apart and jams up the gun. I don't think I've ever seen "battering" in a 1911 or 2011. I have seen cracked slides from lightening cuts and what not but its not something you can prevent until it happens really.

Edited December 5, 2010 by steel1212

[fastarget]

You'll throw out that shok buff when it comes apart and jams up the gun. I don't think I've ever seen "battering" in a 1911 or 2011. I have seen cracked slides from lightening cuts and what not but its not something you can prevent until it happens really.

Agreed about the shok buffs........there are opposing camps, some like some don't........but going back to the mechanics of the gun, something has to start getting beat up if you go too light for your particular load, where are the damage and failures , and how do they look.

[xpertz]

The rule is..You should always use the heaviest spring that your 1911 will operate correctly with. It should feed and eject with no problems. The only time you should need to go lighter is if you use reduced power loads.

Places to look for battering are , the lower barrel lugs where they meet the frame behind the slide stop-barrel link. Also the upper lugs where they contact the slide.

Look at a good Barrel fitting thread or check out Blindhog Gunsmith Pages, just google it.

[soaringf22]

Shok buff, flgr, and variable springs. I agree the shok buff is just one more piece to go wrong that's why I change them religiously and knock on wood I've had luck in doing so.

[steel1212]

The rule is..You should always use the heaviest spring that your 1911 will operate correctly with. It should feed and eject with no problems. The only time you should need to go lighter is if you use reduced power loads.

Places to look for battering are , the lower barrel lugs where they meet the frame behind the slide stop-barrel link. Also the upper lugs where they contact the slide.

Look at a good Barrel fitting thread or check out Blindhog Gunsmith Pages, just google it.

Sorry but I disagree. The rule is for me is to go the lightest I can and the gun still run. A heavy spring is making the gun nose dive with the return. I've shot thousands upon thousands of round through my guns and haven't had one break or show damage yet. If it does I'll replace it. Its a tool and tools get worn.

[Seth]

The rule is..You should always use the heaviest spring that your 1911 will operate correctly with. It should feed and eject with no problems. The only time you should need to go lighter is if you use reduced power loads.

Places to look for battering are , the lower barrel lugs where they meet the frame behind the slide stop-barrel link. Also the upper lugs where they contact the slide.

Look at a good Barrel fitting thread or check out Blindhog Gunsmith Pages, just google it.

Uh... not in my opinion.

Recoil springs effect sight tracking and gun responsiveness. I use the recoil spring that allows me to accurately make my followup shot as quickly as I can. If that is an ultralight spring and the frame and guide rod head take a beating then fine.

The gun is disposable. My expensive custom guns are going to wear out, just like any other race car.

[Carmoney]

Photos of confirmed cases of 1911 battering are going to be like confirmed sightings of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Lots of people claim that the above creatures exist.....but nobody can ever really seem to prove it.

[fastarget]

Photos of confirmed cases of 1911 battering are going to be like confirmed sightings of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Lots of people claim that the above creatures exist.....but nobody can ever really seem to prove it.

I like the analogy, actually it is a good thing...

Well so far I have been working with 130 PF loads, the only thing I am noticing is the recoil rod is showing contact with the frame where it rests......I just came back from the range, with a 9mm 2011 and 2 1911 45acp...

I have not taken them down yet, but with different springs in the 1911s I have timed my splits and have had no reliability problems........still would like to learn what to look for.

[xpertz]

40 years of repairing 1911's and building a few, and I have fixed several that had barrel lugs battered because the springs had never been replaced. I realize that its hard to find proof of battering, as it is not common, but it does happen, and one of the causes is fast, uncontrolled recoil of the slide. Kuhnhausen is the authority. I even had one that kept snapping slide stops, only to find that the barrel lugs were hammered out of dimension. Granted it was old, sorley used and not maintained well, but it was being battered.

I like to see other opinions and am open to testing them. I think most of the people here are pretty good at diagnosing problems and i have learned a few new things. Keep up the good work.

[Seth]

I think you'll find more folks here are focused on performance and not longevity. I see my race guns like the race cars the proceeded them... disposable. I expect them to wear out and am willing to accept that as a consequence of maximum performance --- even if I'm not personally capable of it.

[fastarget]

I think you'll find more folks here are focused on performance and not longevity. I see my race guns like the race cars the proceeded them... disposable. I expect them to wear out and am willing to accept that as a consequence of maximum performance --- even if I'm not personally capable of it.

Yes, I am with you. But there are some guns on the forum with 60-70 and 100k rounds. The trick here just like race cars, is you know what to look for and maintain before it breaks down on you completely during a race (match).

The goal of the thread was to obtain pictures of potential harm that can be seen, to maintain the worn out/battered parts and replace them...........this will also serve the function of diagnosing weak/too light of a spring set up.

[twodownzero]

Photos of confirmed cases of 1911 battering are going to be like confirmed sightings of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Lots of people claim that the above creatures exist.....but nobody can ever really seem to prove it.

I couldn't agree more. A stiffer recoil spring isn't going to stop any potential "battering" unless it keeps the slide from cycling all the way.

The recoil spring is there to store energy to push the slide back forward...not as a shock absorber or a decelerator.

Even if it was, minor changes in springs aren't going to make much difference anyway.

[Seth]

I think you'll find more folks here are focused on performance and not longevity. I see my race guns like the race cars the proceeded them... disposable. I expect them to wear out and am willing to accept that as a consequence of maximum performance --- even if I'm not personally capable of it.

Yes, I am with you. But there are some guns on the forum with 60-70 and 100k rounds. The trick here just like race cars, is you know what to look for and maintain before it breaks down on you completely during a race (match).

The goal of the thread was to obtain pictures of potential harm that can be seen, to maintain the worn out/battered parts and replace them...........this will also serve the function of diagnosing weak/too light of a spring set up.

I fully expect my guns to go 100k plus. In my case, from running a 10# recoil spring in a limited gun I wound up having to replace the guide rod at 27k rounds. The head was battered to death.... but the frame looked great. New guide rod and its run another 8k rounds.

Todd J runs absolutely the lightest recoil spring that the gun will function with. His 6" limited gun is sporting a 9#er and is like racking a .22.

[Merlin Orr]

Might have the best luck at finding someone with a gun showing battering if you can find a dedicated pin shooter using ammo at a 200+ PF.

I personally think that more gunsmiths actually have figured out how to build the 1911/2011 platform now and the poorly fit and timed guns that people used to see damaged by "battering" are no longer being built.....(as many anyway).

[fastarget]

I think you'll find more folks here are focused on performance and not longevity. I see my race guns like the race cars the proceeded them... disposable. I expect them to wear out and am willing to accept that as a consequence of maximum performance --- even if I'm not personally capable of it.

Yes, I am with you. But there are some guns on the forum with 60-70 and 100k rounds. The trick here just like race cars, is you know what to look for and maintain before it breaks down on you completely during a race (match).

The goal of the thread was to obtain pictures of potential harm that can be seen, to maintain the worn out/battered parts and replace them...........this will also serve the function of diagnosing weak/too light of a spring set up.

I fully expect my guns to go 100k plus. In my case, from running a 10# recoil spring in a limited gun I wound up having to replace the guide rod at 27k rounds. The head was battered to death.... but the frame looked great. New guide rod and its run another 8k rounds.

Todd J runs absolutely the lightest recoil spring that the gun will function with. His 6" limited gun is sporting a 9#er and is like racking a .22.

recoil rod is an inexpensive maintenance part so that is easy to detect.....

TJ, yup he flicks the slide back with one finger, but he can get parts cheap

[CenTX]

You'll throw out that shok buff when it comes apart and jams up the gun. I don't think I've ever seen "battering" in a 1911 or 2011. I have seen cracked slides from lightening cuts and what not but its not something you can prevent until it happens really.

There is another option, an aluma-buff.

[mike cyrwus]

Might have the best luck at finding someone with a gun showing battering if you can find a dedicated pin shooter using ammo at a 200+ PF.

I personally think that more gunsmiths actually have figured out how to build the 1911/2011 platform now and the poorly fit and timed guns that people used to see damaged by "battering" are no longer being built.....(as many anyway).

I think thats true, but dont forget good metal and the availability of better high end parts that are usually closer to spec.

I also think theres a ton of guide rods out there that are just dropped in and are currently bashing the crap out of the frame and barrel.

[twikster]

I"ve seen peening signs at the stop-point, where the slide's lower "tunnel"drives the recoil spring guide back into the frame. I've also seen the frame torn out, at the little area below the mainspring housing (MSH). that is a huge weak spot in the 1911 design. I always bypass it by means of a pair of setscrews, thru the frame and into the sides of the MSH. That is so radical a solution, however, that everyone else considers it to be "butchery". I don't engage in it except for alloy frames, or for something on the order of a 460 Rowland.

[aclundwall]

I'm sure I'll make friends with this:-)

The 'weight' of a recoil spring is the force it imparts at it's fully compressed position (in the gun, slide all the way back). So think about this... How much actual difference do you think there will be in terms of impact to the frame if you change the recoil spring weight by a couple pounds? The total force that propels the slide backward is relatively constant, depending on the consistency of the ammo, and is a LOT more than 9 or ten or 12 lbs... Changing the recoil spring weight by two lbs simply adds (or subtracts, if you go up in spring weight) that much to or from the total force needed by the frame to stop the slide when it bottoms out. Sure, it's a dynamic load, which has the effect of multiplying that two pounds somewhat... But in the grand scheme of things, it won't make much difference in the life of the components unless you're already right on the ragged edge. Personally, I use the lightest spring that still works reliably.

Regarding 'worn springs', it's my humble opinion that this topic is way overblown. My experience is that springs settle a bit at first, and then stay that way a very long time, unless they're subjected to high temperatures or corrosive environments. And by high temps, I mean much higher than they see in a pistol... I quantitatively verified this to myself some years back... I built a little device to measure recoil spring weight...cause I was sick of trying to equate a 9 lb Wilson to an 11 lb wolf.... And these days, I measure the spring at it's fully compressed length, and then label it's package with that number. This way, it's a known quantity, regardless of spring brand.

Eventually, I got curious about how 'sacked out' the springs in my guns were, so I started measuring used springs. And I found that after many thousands of rounds, the spring was about the same as after it took it's initial set! Not exactly the same, but almost always within a pound or so. I think the worst case I came across was the 9 lb spring in my SS9mm measured 7.5 lbs after about 12k rounds. But it was still running like a top. I replaced it more out of curiosity, so I could compare it with a new 9 pounder. I wound up changing that out for an 8lb.

If you want to take some energy off your slide, fit a new F/P stop with a smaller radius... Makes a bigger difference than two pounds on the recoil spring, and you don't have the nose dive you get with the heavier spring.

Just my $.02.

[fastarget]

Good observations and a nice write up........

Ed Brown for example on their site recommends changing recoil springs every 3K rounds(others 1500-2000), it also states that the gun should eject the brass 8-12 feet, more than 12 and the spring in the gun is too light (others 4-6 feet), ISMI says you can keep a spring in the gun for an entire year regardless of round count. Info all over the place.

It is all an individual thing, just like a car, maintain it as you wish. In the end what I am hearing is that run the lightest that will allow the gun to cycle reliably and it suits your style of shooting, yet something has to be bumping something else in the action.

[G-ManBart]

Photos of confirmed cases of 1911 battering are going to be like confirmed sightings of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Lots of people claim that the above creatures exist.....but nobody can ever really seem to prove it.

I couldn't agree more. A stiffer recoil spring isn't going to stop any potential "battering" unless it keeps the slide from cycling all the way.

The recoil spring is there to store energy to push the slide back forward...not as a shock absorber or a decelerator.

Even if it was, minor changes in springs aren't going to make much difference anyway.

That's a bit overly simplified. The lighter the recoil spring is, the higher the slide speed will be. With a lighter spring, the slide is going to be at a higher speed when it suddenly comes to a stop at the end of it's travel. That will translate into more energy transferred to the vertical impact surface/frame. It's not impossible to imagine a spring that just barely lets the slide bottom out at the end of it's travel, transferring less energy to the frame. It takes a lot of spring to get most guns to short-stroke, but it doesn't take much difference to see a change in how far empties are ejected, and that translates directly to how hard the slide is bottoming out, i.e. it directly correlates to slide speed.

The recoil spring does serve as a shock absorber, and a decelerator. Part of the reason its there is to keep the slide and barrel together for the first bit of travel aft...sort of a requirement with any short recoil system.

All of that said, I agree that minor changes won't make much difference in frame life....and I've shot a gun long enough that I cracked the slide, had a new one fit, then cracked the frame right about where the vertical impact surface is...took well over 100K rounds at the old Major PF to do that

[RAZZ]

I have always been interested in this topic. I wish my memory was better, and that I had saved the article, but I recall reading years ago (pre-internet days) about a gunsmith (well known--Novak, Wilson, someone like that) who was tired of guessing, or was tired of people asking / telling him how a light spring would cause frame damage to a 1911. So he rigged up a frame and slide with no spring in it at all, then put it on a pnuematic (sp?) acctuator that replicated the slide cycling at firing speed. Then he let it run for 50,000 cycles. The article stated that there was very little appreciative damage to either the slide or frame. If that was true and accurate (which is a big if), I think we could stop worrying too much about spring rates and running a buff.