Chromemoly or stainless?

[D__]

Price is the same.

18", 223Wylde, 1:7.7 twist, hbar profile.

Dealer pushing me to cm. Thoughts?

[Dan Sierpina]

Stainless, the comp will be easier to blend in.

[D__]

Stainless easier to keep clean? Any dossiers to stainless bs cm?0

[Hannu]

With very long freebore for magazine length loaded ammo, stainless may wear out sooner. With Wylde chamber barrel life is limited anyway, so difference is not THAT big.

I would pick stainless with .223 Rem chamber and 9" twist, but that is just my 2 cents

[mpeltier]

With very long freebore for magazine length loaded ammo, stainless may wear out sooner. With Wylde chamber barrel life is limited anyway, so difference is not THAT big.

I would pick stainless with .223 Rem chamber and 9" twist, but that is just my 2 cents

Why would a wylde chamber limit bbl life???

I would NOT recomend a .223 Rem chamber for a 3-gun AR15......Bad Ju-Ju. Unless you want to stick with very specific ammo/reloading criteria.

Between a Chrome Molly bbl and a SS (especially a Krieger SS) the stainless will far outlast the CM. When a benchrest shooter would call a Krieger shot out it would still outperform many other new bbls for many many more rounds as a 3-gun bbl.

The only down size is weight. Off the shelf they are really heavy. ADCO can turn it down for you, and they do a fantastic job.

I am always suspect of a dealers motivation when they try to push something like that, in my experiance it is rarely what is best for the customer

My recomendation is the Krieger in stainless. The 1-7.7 will stabilize ANY bullet. Mine would put 55 and 75 gr into under 1/2" at 100yds, and to the same point of impact. No other bbl I have would/will do that.

[Hannu]

Mpeltier, have you had problems with .223 Rem chamberings ? If yes, please tell what kind of problems ?

Basically speaking: longer freebore, shorter barrel life, and Wylde has pretty long. There is a reason for that, but it has nothing to do with 3-gun or rifle IPSC. .223 Wylde chamber is very good in what it was designed for : load 80gr MK to 2.50", load them to the chamber one by one and shoot good score in High Power match at 600 yd slowfire. In that kind of use, stainless usually lasts longer.

But, specially when you use short bullets loaded to magazine col and excessively long freebore, things get different.

Why so many rifle manufacturers in US use Wylde, is because it lowers peak pressure at the same time being way better than 5.56 Nato.

Comparing to BR barrels... Those barrels have chambers cut exactly for the bullet used, there is no excessive length freebore etc.

The same thing happens with .223 Rem chambered barrels. I examined one barrel when it had 9.500 rounds through - that barrel still had shorter freebore than a new Wylde barrel. The barrel is still going ok, after 26.000 rounds - long range accuracy is not very good anymore, but 150m and less it shoots average 0.7 moa groups.

Turning the barrel down without affecting performance, is a state of art. If you want lighter than Bull profile and you can get it from factory, by all means do it.

[slowsure]

Hannu,

I think what Mpeltier is saying is: Factory 5.56 ammo shot out of a .223 Rem. chamber can raise chamber pressure to unsafe levels. The SAMMI spec's I have read warn against this.

Of course hand loading changes everything.

[Hannu]

We did some research few years ago. At that time, not a single 5.56 Nato M193 round from several manufacturers did reach CIP-maximum pressure for .223 Remington. Please note, that CIP maximum pressure means that pressure average must be under certain limit, but single rounds can create little higher pressure than maximum average.

Pressure gun barrel was (as always) CIP-minimum spec, so you can spell it "tight"

One thing I do not get, if you get Krieger barrel do you really want to shoot the cheapest crap through it ? Even the best barrels can not shoot good with ammunition that is not made to shoot accurately.

If someone wants to shoot 5.56 Nato ammo, I would get a cheap barrel for that and save my Krieger for good handloads or factory ammo.

[Charles Bond]

One thing I do not get, if you get Krieger barrel do you really want to shoot the cheapest crap through it ?

These are the same folks that also sport that $200 optic.

[mpeltier]

Mpeltier, have you had problems with .223 Rem chamberings ? If yes, please tell what kind of problems ?

Basically speaking: longer freebore, shorter barrel life, and Wylde has pretty long. There is a reason for that, but it has nothing to do with 3-gun or rifle IPSC. .223 Wylde chamber is very good in what it was designed for : load 80gr MK to 2.50", load them to the chamber one by one and shoot good score in High Power match at 600 yd slowfire. In that kind of use, stainless usually lasts longer.

But, specially when you use short bullets loaded to magazine col and excessively long freebore, things get different.

Why so many rifle manufacturers in US use Wylde, is because it lowers peak pressure at the same time being way better than 5.56 Nato.

Comparing to BR barrels... Those barrels have chambers cut exactly for the bullet used, there is no excessive length freebore etc.

The same thing happens with .223 Rem chambered barrels. I examined one barrel when it had 9.500 rounds through - that barrel still had shorter freebore than a new Wylde barrel. The barrel is still going ok, after 26.000 rounds - long range accuracy is not very good anymore, but 150m and less it shoots average 0.7 moa groups.

Turning the barrel down without affecting performance, is a state of art. If you want lighter than Bull profile and you can get it from factory, by all means do it.

As a matter of fact, yes. I have had (and witnessed others with) overpresure sighn with .223 rem chambers with heavier than 55 gr loading that otherwise were fine in a wylde or NATO chamber. Reliability is a top priority in 3-gun competition and having diffuculty with extraction, blown primers, seperated case etc, is not conducive to a good score. Additionaly I reload my own ammo, and the longer lead of a wylde or Nato chamber is very helpful to my reloading process .

Only comparison I was making to a BR barrel was to life expectancy of the bbl. The point I was trying to make was that a BR competitor will switch bbls far sooner than a 3-gun competitor. The criteria for accuracy is not the same for each, and a bbl for 3-gun actually takes quite a bit to shoot out. The average long shot for us is probably only about 400yds, much shorter for a lot of folks.

Turning a bbl for a BR shooter may be considered state of the art, but for 3-gun performance it is not rocket science. I have not found turning a bbl to affect anything negatively for a 3-gun rifle. A bull bbl may be desired for BR shooting, but it is not the best for 3-gun.

We did some research few years ago. At that time, not a single 5.56 Nato M193 round from several manufacturers did reach CIP-maximum pressure for .223 Remington. Please note, that CIP maximum pressure means that pressure average must be under certain limit, but single rounds can create little higher pressure than maximum average.

Pressure gun barrel was (as always) CIP-minimum spec, so you can spell it "tight"

One thing I do not get, if you get Krieger barrel do you really want to shoot the cheapest crap through it ? Even the best barrels can not shoot good with ammunition that is not made to shoot accurately.

If someone wants to shoot 5.56 Nato ammo, I would get a cheap barrel for that and save my Krieger for good handloads or factory ammo.

Thats great that you did research with M193, what about M855 or 77gr smk loadings? I would be curious as to the pressure reading a .223 rem chamber develops with longer bullet ogives. Also were these pressure reading taken in the area of the case mouth? or somewhere else. Location of pressure readings makes a big differance.

Now as far as shooting cheap crap thru a Krieger, your putting words in my keyboard. I never said that. There are some very well regarded factory 5.56 Nato loadings out there, and I know many shooters who use them. Yes there is some crap out there and I do not condone its use in a fine krieger bbl.

One thing I do not get, if you get Krieger barrel do you really want to shoot the cheapest crap through it ?

These are the same folks that also sport that $200 optic.

Blasphemy

[elynch2007]

I am an average shooter,but watching many really good shooters as an RO, I feel that the barrel from any good manufacture will perform very well. So it come down to what you like the looks of and lots of practice with it.

[Religious Shooter]

If I had a choice I'd get a CM barrel for 3 gun.

[Hannu]

As a matter of fact, yes. I have had (and witnessed others with) overpresure sighn with .223 rem chambers with heavier than 55 gr loading that otherwise were fine in a wylde or NATO chamber. Reliability is a top priority in 3-gun competition and having diffuculty with extraction, blown primers, seperated case etc, is not conducive to a good score. Additionaly I reload my own ammo, and the longer lead of a wylde or Nato chamber is very helpful to my reloading process .

Only comparison I was making to a BR barrel was to life expectancy of the bbl. The point I was trying to make was that a BR competitor will switch bbls far sooner than a 3-gun competitor. The criteria for accuracy is not the same for each, and a bbl for 3-gun actually takes quite a bit to shoot out. The average long shot for us is probably only about 400yds, much shorter for a lot of folks.

Turning a bbl for a BR shooter may be considered state of the art, but for 3-gun performance it is not rocket science. I have not found turning a bbl to affect anything negatively for a 3-gun rifle. A bull bbl may be desired for BR shooting, but it is not the best for 3-gun.

I have never had reliability problems with properly loaded ammo for the barrel / chamber used at that time, when brass has been in good condition. Other point is, ammo loaded for Rem. chamber will not always cycle Wylde because pressure and muzzle velocity are dropping noticeably.

You definitely want to develop a load for the barrel / chamber you are using...

BR shooters change barrels very often compared to any other shooting sport, and for reason. How often you need to change 3-gun barrel ? I would say, my personal minimum accuracy requirement is 5x5 shot group average less than 1.0 moa / 300 meters. Better accuracy, faster shooting. In my experience, with .223 Wylde the barrel life is somewhere ~60%-65% when compared to .223 Rem barrel with similar quality.

What this means, if you are active shooter you can shoot one season matches and practice rounds (15-20k) with one .223 Rem barrel.

I used to use 5.56 Nato and .223 Wylde, but I do not want to use "worn as new" barrels anymore

I feel alot easier to develop loads for .223 Rem than .223 Wylde. Would be interesting to hear, what is your opinion why you feel it is easier to load for Wylde and why it is difficult for Rem ?

I had problems with brass expanding too much from rear with Wylde chamber. It caused very short brass life (max. 7-8 reloads) and 2x case head separation.

I have experienced case separation once with .223 Rem, LC06 case loaded 32 times. There was obviously 1x too much

Some bullet / powder combinations do not work very well in Wylde because of long bullet jump from case to rifling - causing uneven pressure build up. Specially with pointed plastic tip bullets like V-max and BT.

I have found Rem chamber to be alot easier here too.

If you want your barrel to be not switching POI when warming up or cooling down, you need to what you are doing when turning a barrel down. It is definitely not rocket science, but seems to be pretty hard thing to do. Maybe I have just seen too many turned down barrels, that have shot beautifully before turning and horribly after

Thats great that you did research with M193, what about M855 or 77gr smk loadings? I would be curious as to the pressure reading a .223 rem chamber develops with longer bullet ogives. Also were these pressure reading taken in the area of the case mouth? or somewhere else. Location of pressure readings makes a big differance.

Now as far as shooting cheap crap thru a Krieger, your putting words in my keyboard. I never said that. There are some very well regarded factory 5.56 Nato loadings out there, and I know many shooters who use them. Yes there is some crap out there and I do not condone its use in a fine krieger bbl.

Only available then was IMI M855 load, which was very close to .223 Rem CIP maximum pressure. I have understood IMI is pretty hot, but all M855 ammo I have tested has had pretty poor accuracy and I have not been testing M855 ammo very much because of that.

M193 ammo seems to be much better accuracy, but at the best on the same level with cheapest commercial ammo.

Pressure barrel was (and still is) set up according to CIP specification. I do not remember how many millimeters piezo is located from what point, but I can certainly find that info. I remember, both CIP and SAAMI take piezo readings pretty far from case mouth but I can be wrong here. I have also understood, different sensors commonly used by CIP and SAAMI make small difference.

Anyway, I think pressures measured in the same pressure barrel and with the same piezo are pretty comparable.

Sorry, I did not want to put words on your keybord.

I just feel that 5.56 Nato ammo quality is never even near the level of typical Krieger barrel. In my experience, best lots shoot 1.5-2.0 moa @300 meters average 5x5 shot groups and difference between really good and average barrel is only small. But when you feed both barrels really good ammo, good one will shoot 0.5-0.6 moa and average one 1.2-1.5 moa.

[jmark308]

One thing I do not get, if you get Krieger barrel do you really want to shoot the cheapest crap through it ? Even the best barrels can not shoot good with ammunition that is not made to shoot accurately.

If someone wants to shoot 5.56 Nato ammo, I would get a cheap barrel for that and save my Krieger for good handloads or factory ammo.

OK, I am not the most experienced shooter on this forum, so maybe I don't understand. Help me out if you will. Many 3 gunners will shoot a mix of ammo. 55gr for hoser stages, 69/77gr handloads for long range. So what is the problem with shooting cheap "crap," i.e., cheap 55 gr in a Krieger or any other top grade barrel? I still want accuracy for the long range stuff. Don't need top accuracy ammo for the hoser stages.

Can you expand?

[pjb45]

To me, and I am a new three gun shooter, is that POI can change between cheap ammo and better ammo.

You can shoot cheap ammo out of your barrel with basically no harm to the barrel. You may hear some talk about the really cheap russian stuff with steel and/or laquored cases but I have seen a top 3Gun shooter use it in local matches on the short courses. Others 3Gunners just will not use it at all. Go figure.

Personally, on the short informal matches I will use whatever left over ammo I have. In a real match, I just standardize my handloads to 69g smk. I am too inexperienced to figure out the different points of aim and impact by switching my ammo from 55 to 69. One load for everything -- KISS principle.