KEYHOLE GLOCK 34

[67 LS1 Camaro]

I've been competing with my G17(KKM drop-in barrel) for about two years using my own cast(LEE tumble mould 124gr) with good results.I experimented with different alloys from weights 121-128 grs. All good . WIN SP primers and N320 . I keep the power factor at 136-139( no excuse for steel ). I try to keep the cost down by casting.I have access to a good amount of wheel weights. I do buy MG CMJ's but I save that for my OPEN STI....

One match my father-in-law forgot to bring ammo for his G34(Wolf barrel). So I gave him some of my ammo. We noticed keholes in about 50% of his targets. I said it has to be his gun because the same batch of ammo is fine in my G17. So the verdict was his barrel(5 months ago at the time) .

NOW I just got me a new G34(with KKM barrel).I loaded 700rds , that lot has same cast batch,same powder and primers. All loaded in one session. I went to the bullseye(stand and shoot)range to zero the gun and test drive.Happy very accurate.Fired 130rds and inspected the barrel,very little leading and no change in accuracy.Went home clean barrel/gun .Match day tomorrow!!

Today(is tomorrow)match day. Shot my first stage and found keyholes !! WTF !! about 25% of my shots .I was wondering why I was taking alot of extra shots on the 8" plates. Checked my barrel- CLEAN ... Shot my 2nd stage and same thing,lucky that stage was an all paper assault stage.

OK, I've sort of read some treads here about it. If its good on my G17, then it cannot be crimp,powder burn rate,bullet diameter,bullet hardness,lube,or barrel twist rate ? Could it be barrel length ? HELP !!

Edited November 22, 2010 by 67 LS1 Camaro

[Sarge]

I would load up 100 of your MG's and see what happens. Eliminate one thing at a time and start with bullets.

[lcs]

As Kevin said. Load up 50 or so MG with the same powder and use the same barrel. If no problems, run the same batch of lead bullets through the barrel. If you get keyholeing again, you will probably have to tweak the loads..

Barrels (even from the same manufacture) can react differently to the same loads.

[67 LS1 Camaro]

Im going to test with the MG's this weekend for sure just to eliminate bullet type. I have a feeling that its going to be ok with jacketed bullets... But my goal is to use lead bullets, thats the reason why i use an aftermarket barrel. If coated bullets like Precision works, i would just go jacketed.But if I go jacketed,I would just use my factory barrel.

This keyhole symptom is in two G34's . My Father-in-law's and mines .Wolf and KKM barrels....

Maybe I should try recrowning ?

[Patrick Sweeney]

My bet: the powder.

I had the same problem years ago, with Bullseye and lead bullets. What I found was that for some guns (and for reasons I was never able to track down) lead, Bullseye and 9mm did not play well tiogether.

I kept trying slower powders, and the threshold seems to be right around WW-231.

[lcs]

Im going to test with the MG's this weekend for sure just to eliminate bullet type. I have a feeling that its going to be ok with jacketed bullets... But my goal is to use lead bullets, thats the reason why i use an aftermarket barrel. If coated bullets like Precision works, i would just go jacketed.But if I go jacketed,I would just use my factory barrel.

This keyhole symptom is in two G34's . My Father-in-law's and mines .Wolf and KKM barrels....

Maybe I should try recrowning ?

I don't think "recrowning" is the answer. I would play with the load (lead bullets) if the jacketed rounds do not keyhole. Are you sure the crimp did not change?

[hankfan79]

I vote for bullets.

[calishootr]

its not your barrel length, more than likely its the bullets, be it their hardness,or lack of??? too hard??? undersized??? crimp??? too much???(more than likely) lots of varibles just in the bullets alone...

[dillon]

What does the bullet diamter measure after sizing? Check 20-30 bullets, make sure they are concentric as well, then load those at varying crimps. Often in lead bullets it is easy to overcrimp, which resizes the bullet inside the case. Different alloys shrink differently after casting, you might try buying smelted lead alloy instead of using wheelweights. Modern wheelweights have more copper and beryllium in them, less lead.

[anachronism]

Pull a bullet from a loaded round from that batch & measure it. Dillon likely nailed it. You could have developed a buildup of lube in your crimping die or the die could be slightly out of adjustment. The number one cause of leading and/or keyholing in semi-autos occurs when the bullet gets swaged undersize during the crimping process.

[yuthh]

I've been competing with my G17(KKM drop-in barrel) for about two years using my own cast(LEE tumble mould 124gr) with good results.I experimented with different alloys from weights 121-128 grs. All good . WIN SP primers and N320 . I keep the power factor at 136-139( no excuse for steel ). I try to keep the cost down by casting.I have access to a good amount of wheel weights. I do buy MG CMJ's but I save that for my OPEN STI....

One match my father-in-law forgot to bring ammo for his G34(Wolf barrel). So I gave him some of my ammo. We noticed keholes in about 50% of his targets. I said it has to be his gun because the same batch of ammo is fine in my G17. So the verdict was his barrel(5 months ago at the time) .

NOW I just got me a new G34(with KKM barrel).I loaded 700rds , that lot has same cast batch,same powder and primers. All loaded in one session. I went to the bullseye(stand and shoot)range to zero the gun and test drive.Happy very accurate.Fired 130rds and inspected the barrel,very little leading and no change in accuracy.Went home clean barrel/gun .Match day tomorrow!!

Today(is tomorrow)match day. Shot my first stage and found keyholes !! WTF !! about 25% of my shots .I was wondering why I was taking alot of extra shots on the 8" plates. Checked my barrel- CLEAN ... Shot my 2nd stage and same thing,lucky that stage was an all paper assault stage.

OK, I've sort of read some treads here about it. If its good on my G17, then it cannot be crimp,powder burn rate,bullet diameter,bullet hardness,lube,or barrel twist rate ? Could it be barrel length ? HELP !!

I'd not use tumble mold,get a regular mold size them to .356"-357'.If you want to keep using tumble mold you should size them but it wont keep much lube in the groove since they are micro band groove.I am sure this will help.

[67 LS1 Camaro]

OK well that 700rds was my last batch of soft alloy LOT. Maybe the hardness,shrinkage,and/or crimp played a role . The mould is a 124gr. That batch of 700 was alloy'd to 128gr. Yesterday I casted about 500rds to 124gr(a little harder). Gonna test it tomorrow with just enough crimp to hold the bullet where it doesn't deep seat during round chambering. Be back later for results...........still wondering why it works only in the G17.

[67 LS1 Camaro]

I've been competing with my G17(KKM drop-in barrel) for about two years using my own cast(LEE tumble mould 124gr) with good results.I experimented with different alloys from weights 121-128 grs. All good . WIN SP primers and N320 . I keep the power factor at 136-139( no excuse for steel ). I try to keep the cost down by casting.I have access to a good amount of wheel weights. I do buy MG CMJ's but I save that for my OPEN STI....

One match my father-in-law forgot to bring ammo for his G34(Wolf barrel). So I gave him some of my ammo. We noticed keholes in about 50% of his targets. I said it has to be his gun because the same batch of ammo is fine in my G17. So the verdict was his barrel(5 months ago at the time) .

NOW I just got me a new G34(with KKM barrel).I loaded 700rds , that lot has same cast batch,same powder and primers. All loaded in one session. I went to the bullseye(stand and shoot)range to zero the gun and test drive.Happy very accurate.Fired 130rds and inspected the barrel,very little leading and no change in accuracy.Went home clean barrel/gun .Match day tomorrow!!

Today(is tomorrow)match day. Shot my first stage and found keyholes !! WTF !! about 25% of my shots .I was wondering why I was taking alot of extra shots on the 8" plates. Checked my barrel- CLEAN ... Shot my 2nd stage and same thing,lucky that stage was an all paper assault stage.

OK, I've sort of read some treads here about it. If its good on my G17, then it cannot be crimp,powder burn rate,bullet diameter,bullet hardness,lube,or barrel twist rate ? Could it be barrel length ? HELP !!

I'd not use tumble mold,get a regular mold size them to .356"-357'.If you want to keep using tumble mold you should size them but it wont keep much lube in the groove since they are micro band groove.I am sure this will help.

I like the micro bands. I borrowed .40 Saeco moulds(175 TC) last year from a gunsmith . I compared it to my Lee 175SWC micro bands, it seems that the Lee have less leading after 100rds each thru my LIMITED 5" STI. Plus I like the bigger holes that it makes

Edited November 26, 2010 by 67 LS1 Camaro

[67 LS1 Camaro]

My bet: the powder.

I had the same problem years ago, with Bullseye and lead bullets. What I found was that for some guns (and for reasons I was never able to track down) lead, Bullseye and 9mm did not play well together.

I kept trying slower powders, and the threshold seems to be right around WW-231.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions...I'm kinda glad this symptom happened to me.I've just learned something new......

At first,I really thought it would be the crimp,because it may have been undersizing the lead bullet as it comes out of the case.So I backed out the crimp where it only was enough to take the bell out.Shot about 50 rounds and still keyhole.

Next I cast a new batch of heads with more LINOTYPE to the Wheelweights ,making the cast harder and bullet weight to 124grs(normally I alloy to 127grs). Fired 100rds still keyhole.

100rds of 124 MG JHP/4.4ofN320 and 200rds of 125 Precision/4.3ofN320 is good....

But my goal here is to use my cast ,just because I'm cheap!!..hehe

I didn't really want to go to a slower burning powder thinking it would be way more recoil.But since I have AutoComp that I use in my Major9 STI, I tried it.Shot a match today about 150rds and not one keyhole.THANKS MR.SWEENY. If there was any difference in recoil,I couldn't tell.I still can compete with it.

G34 ( KKM Barrel )

Sevigny FO sights

V3 connector and springs

OEM recoil spring/guide rod

124 TC Micro Bands

4.3 AutoComp

Win SP primers

FC brass -------------1184 fps AVE. ------134 PF

Edited December 6, 2010 by 67 LS1 Camaro

[G-ManBart]

Did you ever consider that the load that was 134-139PF would/could have been at a higher velocity with the longer G34 barrels? Dropping a bit off the old load may have fixed it, as I see the AC load was down at 134PF. Might be worth trying so you could at least use up the other powder. R,

[67 LS1 Camaro]

Well, even if lowering the PF with N320 that may stop the keyholes, not really worth the risk(for me) for poppers or Texas star . Sometimes it's set up far,angled,or the pins on the poppers are not lubed.

Still have use for my N320. Like my G35 or limited STI.

Gonna test 100rds with W-231/124cast in the G34. See how that works. Another shooter hookin me up with half pound to sample. The AutoComp seems to have more kick than factory ammo. Gas? Hmmm

[98sr20ve]

I am using a G34, KKM barrel, Solo 1000 (similiar speed powder as you), Lyman 147gr Mold, Range Scrap lead, Water Dropped while casting. Take away the water dropping and they keyhole, use a FCD and they keyhole, straight WW keyhole, sized smaller then .356" and they keyhole (So I use a .357 die) . I have had lots of people tell me the above is not true. Reality is in my gun, using my barrel and powder that is what works. You need to find what works for you. For the record, my LW barrel had a huge throat. I should have sent it back but I sold it to someone who needed a barrel and didn't want to ever shoot lead. When I shot 124gr bullets they always dropped the steel @ 132 PF.

[G-ManBart]

Well, even if lowering the PF with N320 that may stop the keyholes, not really worth the risk(for me) for poppers or Texas star . Sometimes it's set up far,angled,or the pins on the poppers are not lubed.

Still have use for my N320. Like my G35 or limited STI.

Gonna test 100rds with W-231/124cast in the G34. See how that works. Another shooter hookin me up with half pound to sample. The AutoComp seems to have more kick than factory ammo. Gas? Hmmm

Oh yeah, I was just wondering if it was one of those oddball things where a little more velocity was causing a problem...just from a gee whiz standpoint.

Yeah, the larger charge of AC will create a bit more of a jet effect, and a bit more recoil. R,

[67 LS1 Camaro]

I am using a G34, KKM barrel, Solo 1000 (similiar speed powder as you), Lyman 147gr Mold, Range Scrap lead, Water Dropped while casting. Take away the water dropping and they keyhole,

I've never tried water quenching. For sure I'm going to try that and post results(about 2weeks). That may be another cure besides slower burning powder. Hmmmm........

Just wondering tho...do you alloy some WW(small % arsenic content for water quenching)with the Range Scrap lead ? Or cast 100% range scrap lead ?

[98sr20ve]

I am using a G34, KKM barrel, Solo 1000 (similiar speed powder as you), Lyman 147gr Mold, Range Scrap lead, Water Dropped while casting. Take away the water dropping and they keyhole,

I've never tried water quenching. For sure I'm going to try that and post results(about 2weeks). That may be another cure besides slower burning powder. Hmmmm........

Just wondering tho...do you alloy some WW(small % arsenic content for water quenching)with the Range Scrap lead ? Or cast 100% range scrap lead ?

Range scrap is already a mix of a variety of alloys. I have WW's but I don't use them because it's not needed. I do test my batch of lead just to be sure before making a HUGE batch.

[67 LS1 Camaro]

I am using a G34, KKM barrel, Solo 1000 (similiar speed powder as you), Lyman 147gr Mold, Range Scrap lead, Water Dropped while casting. Take away the water dropping and they keyhole,

I've never tried water quenching. For sure I'm going to try that and post results(about 2weeks). That may be another cure besides slower burning powder. Hmmmm........

Just wondering tho...do you alloy some WW(small % arsenic content for water quenching)with the Range Scrap lead ? Or cast 100% range scrap lead ?

Range scrap is already a mix of a variety of alloys. I have WW's but I don't use them because it's not needed.

In that case you should send me the WW's.......

[Bob DuBois]

Check crimp on that batch. Keyholes are usually crimp to tight. Measure the brass where the bullet is seated then subtract.002 and try to keep your crimp in that area. 0380 the set crimp at .0278.

You might get by a little tighter but that's what I shoot for on cast bullets.

[98sr20ve]

I am using a G34, KKM barrel, Solo 1000 (similiar speed powder as you), Lyman 147gr Mold, Range Scrap lead, Water Dropped while casting. Take away the water dropping and they keyhole,

I've never tried water quenching. For sure I'm going to try that and post results(about 2weeks). That may be another cure besides slower burning powder. Hmmmm........

Just wondering tho...do you alloy some WW(small % arsenic content for water quenching)with the Range Scrap lead ? Or cast 100% range scrap lead ?

Range scrap is already a mix of a variety of alloys. I have WW's but I don't use them because it's not needed.

In that case you should send me the WW's.......

Uhmmm, NO. But good try. Let us know if this helps at all. Good luck.

Edited December 15, 2010 by 98sr20ve

[67 LS1 Camaro]

Uhmmm, NO. But good try. Let us know if this helps at all. Good luck.

Any shared experience may be helpful(if not me,for sure someone else).Thanks......

We both had same symptom - keyhole ...Same gun,same barrels,and using cast bullets. For the record, I am using FCD.

My fix :

1.slower powder

Your fix:

1.water quenching

2.lead composition

3.larger diameter sizer(to .357)

4.change crimp die

Edited December 16, 2010 by 67 LS1 Camaro

[98sr20ve]

Any shared experience may be helpful(if not me,for sure someone else).Thanks......

We both had same symptom - keyhole ...Same gun,same barrels,and using cast bullets. For the record, I am using FCD.

My fix :

1.slower powder

Your fix:

1.water quenching

2.lead composition

3.larger diameter sizer(to .357)

4.change crimp die

I don't use a FCD with any of my calibers with any bullet. I have used WW and they still didn't work right no matter the size or hardness UNLESS water dropped. Maybe my WW batch is soft. I have used non-water dropped, Alox lubed bullets in this barrel with the same Solo 1000 and they shot fine. No keyholing. They were unsized but @ about .358+ inch's @ 8 bhn. I use a .357 sizing die but they come out a smidge under .357". I promise you the FCD sizes my bullets when seated to 1.080". They have to be seated that short to chamber properly. If seated to 1.130 they would probably not be touched by the FCD. The sweet spot is .356"+ inch's. If they are closer to 356" size they need to be a little harder. If they are too hard they lead (in the 20BHN range). The perfect BHN for my gun and this powder is around 14BHN. 17 is ok. It might lead just a smidge in the throat but will go 1K+ rounds with zero addition lead build up. I can shoot that combo so long that the lube build up on the chamber area will become a issue way before it starts to lead at all.

Edit: The .358 bullets I tried were a gift. I didn't make them. I don't use alox so I can't test my bullets unsized. WW would probably work fine for my gun if lubed somehow. I just don't have a way of trying it. I use a star sizer for my lubing. I only have one sizing die.

Edited December 17, 2010 by 98sr20ve