Just not the same!

[stuart1]

LOL! I've sat for 30 years. I've shot for almost that long. I've taught Zen and I've taught shooting. And yet...hitting and missing still are not the same. Perhaps I need to sit more. Dennis

[benos]

And yet...hitting and missing still are not the same.

As you've learned from studying Zen, everything simultaneously is and isn't. Perhaps you are only noticing when they are not.

be

[John Tuley]

learned from studying Zen, everything simultaneously is and isn't. Perhaps you are only noticing when they are not.

be

Are you sure that's Zen? Sounds a lot like quantum mechanics to me.

Maybe they're the same?

[stuart1]

LOL! Of course you're right...I enjoy the shooting itself - hit or miss! Gassho, Dennis

[benos]

learned from studying Zen, everything simultaneously is and isn't. Perhaps you are only noticing when they are not.

be

Are you sure that's Zen? Sounds a lot like quantum mechanics to me.

Maybe they're the same?

Maybe they are.

[stuart1]

LOL! Perhaps "Things are not what they seem to be, nor can they be different!"

[johnbh]

I read the book Zen the Art Of Archery,when I was competing in archery.

Were getting into heavy stuff here. I find it very interesting w/ the

posts.

[StraightUp_OG]

Schrodinger's zen

[benos]

Schrodinger's zen

I have a T-shirt - on the front is: Schrödinger's Cat is Dead. And on the back it says - Schrödinger's Cat is Not Dead.

Brilliant.

[stuart1]

Like most of us...sometimes the cat is more or less dead, sometimes it's not.

[StraightUp_OG]

Schrodinger's zen

I have a T-shirt - on the front is: Schrödinger's Cat is Dead. And on the back it says - Schrödinger's Cat is Not Dead.

Brilliant.

Indeed! Schrödinger's thought experiment is fantastic and provides a strong parallel to zen. The shot is both hit and miss until observed. The act of pulling the trigger (opening the box) is the observation thus influencing the outcome of the experiment. With zen both hit and miss are of no consequence and should not be pondered! Once we put weight on a hit or a miss we are, in effect, observing thus influencing by conscious thought. Schrödinger's paradox is ZEN!

Schrödinger's cat is dead, long live Schrödinger's cat!

Edited November 19, 2010 by StraightUp_OG

[benos]

Schrodinger's zen

I have a T-shirt - on the front is: Schrödinger's Cat is Dead. And on the back it says - Schrödinger's Cat is Not Dead.

Brilliant.

Indeed! Schrödinger's thought experiment is fantastic and provides a strong parallel to zen. The shot is both hit and miss until observed. The act of pulling the trigger (opening the box) is the observation thus influencing the outcome of the experiment. With zen both hit and miss are of no consequence and should not be pondered! Once we put weight on a hit or a miss we are, in effect, observing thus influencing by conscious thought. Schrödinger's paradox is ZEN!

Schrödinger's cat is dead, long live Schrödinger's cat!

Good stuff!

I've fired some of my absolute best shots when the shot was directed toward where a target used to be.

be

[Neomet]

Things are not what they are and not what they are not.

[twikster]

El Jefe said it is your misses that teach you the most, if you are paying attention. I tend to agree.

[Tyro Shooter]

my Zen moment for today

A stage in the middle of the clubs steel match

I had a plan for the stage

upon the buzzer the draw felt smooth

if only because the first plate was suddenly . . .gone

step and move out of the box and I'm now looking at two more falling plates

I'm supprised to find my self standing in the 'Sweet spot" I'd mapped out during my walk through and looking at my front sight knocking down and ringing steel.5- 10 -15 -20 plates fall

it is a beautiful day in SoCal, the sun and wind are just right, I'm in a zone, my reload felt like i could give that Travis Tomasi reloading video a good run . . .

back to watching steel fall and sing

down the hall and a few more fall

at the last window and that hidden popper that was a tricky last shoot looks huge and unobstructed now.there is no way i could miss that . . .hit it on the move.

I unload

show clear

holster

and before the voices and the crowd start up again

in that split second of time . . .for just then it went perfect

Is this what Brian is talking about?

I cant remember seeing the front sight during that run, but it was there just in front of those white plates that kept falling over.

I felt . . light and fast, the echo of my shots had a pleasing quick tempo.. . like a good melody where every note of music is perficly timed. . . . not harsh or stacato at all

and I felt that the run was effortless. I did not "Think" during that run . . It just happened. I just kept finding my self in front of plates that kept falling over.

Is this acheving a Zen moment?

I start to come out of this zone and the look on my friends faces just says

Wow

that was fast.

there coments were. . . ."Wow that was fast"

the timer (my normal every day nemisis)It's read out is telling me "Wow that was fast"

the R.O. is telling me wow that was fast.

BUT

you walked by that one target in the second window

suddenly I'm back on planit reality

and the echos of that sweet music is replaced with a drunk one legged man playing an out of tune piano with a mop.

but for that one quarter of a split second, I was alowed to see the light and feel what it is supposed to be like.

my new years resolution is to go back and find that moment again (and hopefuly more than once a match.)

[benos]

I really enjoyed reading your post Tyro Shooter.

When every form of trying ceases, the magic happens.

Or in other words, that moment finds you when you are not looking for it.

be

[sonicslam]

Another thread I read to understand this "zen" thing. And yet and still...no understanding. Apparently I need to fire up the hippie lettuce to get the "zen" going? Any help here is encouraged.

S.........S........

[benos]

When you stop trying to understand, you will know, without understanding.

be

[sonicslam]

When you stop trying to understand, you will know, without understanding.

be

So you are saying it's possible to "know" without "understanding"? Sounds like double speak to me.

[whitedog]

Have you ever thought about how you walk? Really thought about the weight transfer and mechanics involved? Probably not. And yet you "know" how to walk. Sometimes it is better to "know" than over work thought.

[benos]

When you stop trying to understand, you will know, without understanding.

be

So you are saying it's possible to "know" without "understanding"?

When you have to pee what do you do? Think about it, or just go pee? One can do either. In most instances, when doing is or will be required, instead of just doing, thinking will bog you down.

At it's core, the teaching of zen is super simple. A famous zen story tell of a monk that came to ask the master for advice on becoming enlightened. The master said, "have you eaten your breakfast?" The monk said "yes." The master said, "then go and wash your bowls."

Another saying on a similar vein... A student asked, "what is the Way"? The master answered, "When I'm hungry I eat; when I'm tired I lie down. Fools laugh at me, but the wise understand."

Have you ever thought about how you walk? Really thought about the weight transfer and mechanics involved? Probably not. And yet you "know" how to walk. Sometimes it is better to "know" than over work thought.

Exactly. it's like when you drink water. You yourself know whether it's cool or warm - what's the point of thinking about it?

Thinking is for analyzing; knowing is for doing.

be

[38supPat]

I think you made the point about learning to ride a bike, there is no "how" and you can't think about it, you just have to get on the bike. You may not succeed at first, but if you keep at it before you know it you are riding. You can think about it after but there is no real point where you knew how to ride a bike and you certainly can't tell someone how to do it, but you can still ride a bike...even now, if you haven't ridden a bike in years, you can still get on and ride.

[stuart1]

I've been shooting for years. I understand how to do it. Without thinking I know how to do it. Yet sometimes the bullet hits...sometimes not. At a deeper level (if there were levels and if some were deeper) sometimes hitting and missing are the same, and yet... Dennis

Edited December 23, 2010 by stuart1

[sonicslam]

When you stop trying to understand, you will know, without understanding.

be

So you are saying it's possible to "know" without "understanding"?

When you have to pee what do you do? Think about it, or just go pee? One can do either. In most instances, when doing is or will be required, instead of just doing, thinking will bog you down.

At it's core, the teaching of zen is super simple. A famous zen story tell of a monk that came to ask the master for advice on becoming enlightened. The master said, "have you eaten your breakfast?" The monk said "yes." The master said, "then go and wash your bowls."

Another saying on a similar vein... A student asked, "what is the Way"? The master answered, "When I'm hungry I eat; when I'm tired I lie down. Fools laugh at me, but the wise understand."

Ok, I think I'm getting it now. You quoted a monk. I ignore any and all things spoken of or done by ANY religious order (before you innundate me with all you anecdotes, please read "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" by Charles Chiniquy and if that don't wake you up nothing will) so I will prolly never get to my "zen" moment (thankfully)!

S............S..............

Have you ever thought about how you walk? Really thought about the weight transfer and mechanics involved? Probably not. And yet you "know" how to walk. Sometimes it is better to "know" than over work thought.

Exactly. it's like when you drink water. You yourself know whether it's cool or warm - what's the point of thinking about it?

Thinking is for analyzing; knowing is for doing.

be

[sonicslam]

I think you made the point about learning to ride a bike, there is no "how" and you can't think about it, you just have to get on the bike. You may not succeed at first, but if you keep at it before you know it you are riding. You can think about it after but there is no real point where you knew how to ride a bike and you certainly can't tell someone how to do it, but you can still ride a bike...even now, if you haven't ridden a bike in years, you can still get on and ride.

This makes ZERO sense. There is no "HOW" to ride a bike? There are books to end on 'how" to ride a bike (or motorcycle) Since I have been riding (and racing since 1972) I can assure you there is a "how" to do it. Ask a champion. They will agree.