Don't Expect Classifier Scores This Week.

[JThompson]

I heard it through the grapevine that they are going to wait for all the Nats scores to come in before they run the update this month... That means the end of next week, I'm told...

I also had some back channel conversations about one of our biggest pet peeves.... Why don't they update more than once a month. It's harder for people to get classified initially. Some people get an extra month in a class where they shouldn't be. etc etc. And my personal peeve WAITING!

Okay, so here's the deal... the work comes in because there are a still some clubs, 10% say, that send in all their stuff on paper; then all that stuff has to be read and keyed in (think match scoresheets errors and all!) This takes a great deal of time and man/woman hours to get done. Aha! an answer that makes sense, but you know me.... Okay, I can see that, so why don't we do it this way.... Let's do a bimonthly update for all those that have made it into this century. That way the 10% doesn't hold up the 90%. "The needs of the many, outweigh, the needs of the few, or the one!" Running the electronic ones doesn't take much time at all and any scores that were questionable can be kicked to the second batch in the month that already has the hand keying.

You make a statement on how and why they are doing it this way, so when members go look and their club hasn't been updated, they know it's because the scores weren't turned in "electronically," or there was an issue with them. In this way, the local guys can put pressure on to get the systems up to date.

If it were up to me, I would mandate all scores come in in electronic form....

I sent a request off to my AD about this and asked him to take it to the BOD. It's about time we drag those clubs into this century... it creates way more work in Sedro than necessary to have to deal with bad penmanship and errors. There's no need for it anymore... it might be a pain for some to get up to speed, but "The needs of the many......"

You can always find reasons NOT to do something, but this needs to get done. It's one of the gripes I hear most from new shooters and old alike.

One electronic and one electronic/paper per month for the next year, by the end of 2011, ALL scores most be submitted electronically. Done....

Tune in next week when I take on people who wait to signal a turn AFTER the light turns green!

JT

Edited October 12, 2010 by JThompson

[DWFAN]

Thanks JT.. Was looking to see that magical initial classification show up this week, but guess next week will do.

Yes, good idea.

[JThompson]

Thanks JT.. Was looking to see that magical initial classification show up this week, but guess next week will do.

Yes, good idea.

Sorry you have to wait pal... I remember my initial and how excited I was to find out where I was. I shot very few matches at first and when I finally had enough for my initial I had to wait two months! I think the first time the fees weren't paid or something, so I had that month and then the next before I got it.

Hope you place where you think you will....

JT

[DWFAN]

Yeah, no big deal.. Should come in at B single stack.

[PJ BAD]

JT,

Are you waiting for that magical GM card?

[beltjones]

It was funny. I thought that only new guys like me were obsessed with their classifications. That is, until I went to lunch with a bunch of guys after a match, all of whom have been shooting for years. A few of them pulled out their Androids with the cmcalc app loaded and suddenly everyone was super excited to calculate their hit factors on the classifier of the day and find out if they were getting closer to a bump.

They ought to require everyone to submit electronically. The clubs that still submit paper classifier scores will probably soon realize what a time savings it is to move into the modern age anyway. Ideally they would build a classification engine similar to what the USGA has for golf handicaps that will update itself on the fly as scores come in - but that might take a little time and budget. Any techie guys care to estimate what it would cost to build such an engine?

[JThompson]

JT,

Are you waiting for that magical GM card?

Sure, toast me and put a check in the box to quit whining... you do realize I have your CC info right?

JT

[foilhat]

sounds like a good idea.

[JThompson]

It was funny. I thought that only new guys like me were obsessed with their classifications. That is, until I went to lunch with a bunch of guys after a match, all of whom have been shooting for years. A few of them pulled out their Androids with the cmcalc app loaded and suddenly everyone was super excited to calculate their hit factors on the classifier of the day and find out if they were getting closer to a bump.

They ought to require everyone to submit electronically. The clubs that still submit paper classifier scores will probably soon realize what a time savings it is to move into the modern age anyway. Ideally they would build a classification engine similar to what the USGA has for golf handicaps that will update itself on the fly as scores come in - but that might take a little time and budget. Any techie guys care to estimate what it would cost to build such an engine?

I think the two biggest (non shooting and reset related) peeves shooters have both relate to scores. The first is not getting them posted after a match in a timely fashion and the second is the classifier update delay. As good as the calcs are, they really don't tell you where you are going to be down to a % and that's what you need to know a lot of the time. Perhaps they will heed the call, and get it done. One can only hope... I'll let you know if Gary will take it to them. I should contact all the ADs and see what they think... I've gotten to know most of them here and on the field of battle.

Comon guys... help your brothas and sistas out!

JT

Edited October 12, 2010 by JThompson

[spanky]

I don't see any logical reason why electronically submitted classifier scores cant be done almost instantly.

[colt]

I am wondering if it is not so much the sending in the classifiers over the internet as it is paying for them. I don't think they will post them till they are paid for. When you upload the activity report it says send a check or click here to pay now.

I have shot at club's where the club treasure has to pay for the classifiers and he is not a USPSA shooter and is in no hurry to mail it in. I know of another club that the score keeper paid for it on his credit card and took the money out match money to pay him self back.

When we started are club and I do the score's I didn't want that to happen so I ask for a separate account with a debit card and some how they agreed to it.

Brent

[beltjones]

I don't see any logical reason why electronically submitted classifier scores cant be done almost instantly.

I'm sure USPSA hasn't really heard the cries from the masses regarding the classification system, and I'm sure if they did it would take a while to put together a budget and then hire someone to build and implement an engine.

But you're right. It would only take a middleware application of some kind to make the upload system and the score reporting system talk to each other and have the intelligence to kick out anything that required human review. We're not talking about anything that hasn't been done in far more complicated environments literally thousands of times.

I can see why they would only want to run and mail new classification cards once per month, but as far as the update goes there is absolutely no logical reason it isn't done instantaneously. What is this, 1990?

[PJ BAD]

JT,

Are you waiting for that magical GM card?

Sure, toast me and put a check in the box to quit whining... you do realize I have your CC info right?

JT

Touché

Tune in next week when I take on people who wait to signal a turn AFTER the light turns green!

JT

Can't wait!

[BCrane]

Im on pins and needles waiting for my initial. I dont think Im going to get credit for a match I wrote "pending" on my sheet, as it should have been on last months update. Im going to be low B or HIGH C, and the wait is killing me. 2 of my classifiers were too new to get an idea of percentage from the calculator.

I too wish they were updates more often, but I'm just a n00b

[Chills1994]

why even bother printing out and mailing cards?

if Sedro wants to save money, then just make the members who want a card print it out at home.

I know I have never been asked for my card at a major match.

i'd also be all for making the Front Sight periodical available as a .pdf....again to save on the printing and mailing costs.

HQ could just send out a bulk email to active members telling them that the latest issue is available at such and such a link.

[DWFAN]

why even bother printing out and mailing cards?

if Sedro wants to save money, then just make the members who want a card print it out at home.

I know I have never been asked for my card at a major match.

i'd also be all for making the Front Sight periodical available as a .pdf....again to save on the printing and mailing costs.

HQ could just send out a bulk email to active members telling them that the latest issue is available at such and such a link.

I'd be good with that.

[bbbean]

why even bother printing out and mailing cards?

if Sedro wants to save money, then just make the members who want a card print it out at home.

I know I have never been asked for my card at a major match.

i'd also be all for making the Front Sight periodical available as a .pdf....again to save on the printing and mailing costs.

HQ could just send out a bulk email to active members telling them that the latest issue is available at such and such a link.

I like my paper magazine. It's easier to read than a PDF, requires no electricity, gets laid out where non-shooting friends can see it and ask questions, and the articles are just the right length for bathroom reading. I can also swat the cat with it when he tries to check out primers or small parts on the work bench.

You do have a point about the cards, though. Some states may accept them for CCW purposes (It was one of the options for proof of training Florida allowed when I got my first CCW), but I suppose you could just as easily print out a PDF.

[Corey]

i too like the paper magazine, i can grab it and take it to work with me, etc. i really dont care about getting new cards in the mail? i like the idea of printing one out if you want to have one, but it really doesnt bother me.

[rvb]

As the scorekeeper for a club that shoots the 1st Sunday, I'll toss out a downside more frequent updates...

When I can, I post scores and wait a few days to send in the activity report and do the classifier upload/payment. This way if there is a scoring error and a shooter needs a correction (wrong division, major vs minor, incorrect penalties, etc), I can do it in the scores w/o doing a formal correction request. On those months where the 1st Sunday is only a day or two before the 10th when the scores need sent in, I have to cross my fingers and send everything in one upload or a day apart. And sometimes that has to happen anyway if I have to travel for work, etc. Clubs that shoot 3rd Sunday have the most slack in making corrections and uploading before the next update. If you go to 2x/month for updates, you will a) create a need for more correction requests through HQ and B ) still be waiting on updates since, as a scorekeeper, if I have no opportunity to fix scores but know there's another round in 2 weeks, I'll just wait till the next round. Then people will be upset their classifiers aren't entered, etc.

Must we really be that impatient?

Just Shoot!

-rvb

ps. I like my paper copy of Front Site. It's the only mag I sit and read at least partially, if not all. Some articles out of Blue Press get read sometimes [well, Duane's anyway!]. Other rags go straight from mail bin to trash bin. If FS weren't part of my membership $, I would actually subscribe...

-rvb

Edited October 13, 2010 by rvb

[Chills1994]

well...maybe one of the higher highers would/could grace us here in this thread with their presence to let us know what it costs to print out and mail 16,000 + copies of Front Sight.

otherwise....I will have to dig through some past Form 990's and figure it for myself.

who knows....that could be better spent on putting on a better nationals...or reducing the match fee...

or if that USSA facility goes to the auction block maybe USPSA could buy it. (yeah...I know....that last one's a stretch).

that earlier suggestion to update automatically...well...that's not the first time that's been suggested.

[JThompson]

As the scorekeeper for a club that shoots the 1st Sunday, I'll toss out a downside more frequent updates...

When I can, I post scores and wait a few days to send in the activity report and do the classifier upload/payment. This way if there is a scoring error and a shooter needs a correction (wrong division, major vs minor, incorrect penalties, etc), I can do it in the scores w/o doing a formal correction request. On those months where the 1st Sunday is only a day or two before the 10th when the scores need sent in, I have to cross my fingers and send everything in one upload or a day apart. And sometimes that has to happen anyway if I have to travel for work, etc. Clubs that shoot 3rd Sunday have the most slack in making corrections and uploading before the next update. If you go to 2x/month for updates, you will a) create a need for more correction requests through HQ and B ) still be waiting on updates since, as a scorekeeper, if I have no opportunity to fix scores but know there's another round in 2 weeks, I'll just wait till the next round. Then people will be upset their classifiers aren't entered, etc.

Must we really be that impatient?

Just Shoot!

-rvb

ps. I like my paper copy of Front Site. It's the only mag I sit and read at least partially, if not all. Some articles out of Blue Press get read sometimes [well, Duane's anyway!]. Other rags go straight from mail bin to trash bin. If FS weren't part of my membership $, I would actually subscribe...

-rvb

Are you serious? People will be upset that they are either getting them faster, or at the same time? There is NO downside to having updates done twice a month other than any work at Sedro. Some people will always bitch, but that's just the nature of people.

[rvb]

Are you serious? People will be upset that they are either getting them faster, or at the same time? There is NO downside to having updates done twice a month other than any work at Sedro. Some people will always bitch, but that's just the nature of people.

I think as long as it's done every X weeks, people will be disapointed when their classifers are not included in the update following their match. upset? maybe some. I think disapointed is a better description for most. I'm new to scorekeeping, not even a whole season yet. But I do the best I can to get scores up the day of the match and classifiers upload/paid-for for the next update. I just think making it more frequent COULD mean more correction requests for scorekeepers and HQ, as well as more occurances of classifiers not being uploaded for the "next" update.

Another consideration... currently it is possible that if a club doesn't get a competitor's classifiers uploaded/paid-for for a couple months, a person could loose out on a bump-up, depending on the order the clssifiers are added and drop off. That situation could compound the more frequently the updates are performed.

I think an ideal situation is that as scores are posted, the system automatically updates classifications... almost "live." Anything else is just recreating the same issues with a different frequency. If that were implemented, I'd like to see scorekeepers able to update scores on classifiers w/o going through the correction request process; by just making the change in EZWinScore. They could implement a policy that after X days (maybe 30 days), then a request has to be done through the correction process. As far as payment, perhaps they could prevent the club from uploading scores unless the previous match was paid for. [just brainstorming]

There's nothing "wrong" with what you are proposing. I'm not sure it solves any real problems, either. I'm just playing devil's advocate; looking at it a little differently.

-rvb

[Corey]

I think that all clubs should just use the Palms and have the scores INSTANTLY go into the website, so by the time you reload your mags, grab your iphone and you'll see it. There! problem solved, everyone is happy.........well maybe , haha.

Somebody will always have something to complain about or it not being done to their specifications. do whats best for the gross of the population.

[rvb]

It's about time we drag those clubs into this century... it creates way more work in Sedro than necessary to have to deal with bad penmanship and errors. There's no need for it anymore... it might be a pain for some to get up to speed, but "The needs of the many......"

It's hard to "drag" volunteers into anything. Perhaps most clubs would change their MO, or find a new scorekeeper to volunteer. Would we loose any clubs over forcing that change? Maybe not. But if we do, is that worth it?

I'm sure uspsa went through this before when the classifier system was implemented? Anyone involved then want to share experiences? Was it all paper then, or on computer? Maybe it's a non issue? I've only been around uspsa ~5 yrs.

-rvb

[mgood]

I don't see any logical reason why electronically submitted classifier scores cant be done almost instantly.

I agree.

why even bother printing out and mailing cards?

if Sedro wants to save money, then just make the members who want a card print it out at home.

I know I have never been asked for my card at a major match.

i'd also be all for making the Front Sight periodical available as a .pdf....again to save on the printing and mailing costs.

HQ could just send out a bulk email to active members telling them that the latest issue is available at such and such a link.

I like my paper magazine. It's easier to read than a PDF, requires no electricity, gets laid out where non-shooting friends can see it and ask questions, and the articles are just the right length for bathroom reading. I can also swat the cat with it when he tries to check out primers or small parts on the work bench.

You do have a point about the cards, though. Some states may accept them for CCW purposes (It was one of the options for proof of training Florida allowed when I got my first CCW), but I suppose you could just as easily print out a PDF.

Yeah. I like having the card . . . but it's not like I need it for anything. Make it available online for those who want to print one and save a few bucks. I'm cool with that.

PLEASE DO NOT go to pdf on the magazine! HUGE pet peeve of mine. Magazines are for reading when I'm not at my computer. Yeah, yeah, I could print it out. Then I have hundreds, or thousands of loose papers from all the crap I read getting mixed up. Buy notebooks to organize them? How 'bout subscribing to the freaking magazine? Make it available online. Then offer different rates for membership, with or without magazine, just like the associate membership deal now, but available to anyone, not just those living in a household that already receives one copy.

That's like companies who have gone away from paper catalogs. Or who have them, but it's hard to get them. It's much easier to flip back and forth in a paper catalog. Hold one page while looking at another and flip back and forth. Circle things, make notes, etc.

I think that all clubs should just use the Palms and have the scores INSTANTLY go into the website, so by the time you reload your mags, grab your iphone and you'll see it.

I like it.

Update weekly, or daily or hourly, whatever.

For the people who send paper rather than submitting electronically, enter them once a month. Maybe someone in the club who owns a computer and wants quicker updates will volunteer to be their score person.

When I joined, I drove an extra couple hundred miles, each way, to shoot a match with another club to get that fourth classifier. . . . Then they didn't get the scores turned in until over a month after the match. (They had the match results by the time we got the props put away. But it wasn't sent to USPSA.)

I sent an email, in which I may have said some things that I should not have.

Edited October 14, 2010 by mgood