Starting facing up-range

[Magnus DUX]

How do you turn when the stage starts in the box facing uprange?

Where do you stand inside the box?

Do you turn to your strong or weak side?

Do you move your strong or weak side foot first?

Another thing: Is it legal (if COF description does not say anything specific about it) in USPSA to start facing uprange with crossed feet and turn that way? I found that to be the fastest way.

Thanks

[JThompson]

A3

Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders

parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop.

Depnds on how large the box is, but I want to have enough room to turn without hitting the front of the box. It also depends on if you are leaving the box or shooting withing it. I almost always turn toward my gun hand and move my strong foot first.

Edited September 14, 2010 by JThompson

[Magnus DUX]

Thanks.

What "parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop" means?

Fancy wording when English is not your native language

[Cold Absolute Zero]

Facing uprange I stand at the top left corner, feet close together. On the buzzer I turn my head to the right (gun & holster side) and pick up my right leg turn it and plant then lift up my left leg and swing around. If I was a lefty I would reverse the above.

CAZ

[calishootr]

its fancy verbage to clarify a really simple thing that A LOT of people have trashed(read gamed) overthe yrs...for instance i have seen the basic 'el presidente' shot where the shooter had his feet pointed at the targets and had cranked his body around so that he 'faced' with his head uprange...yeah, not the 'intent' of what was supposed to happen, the verbage now makes it so that if you are facing uprange, EVERYTHING is facing uprange, easiest wayto look at it, is that you are facing uprange in a box, look down, are you parellel to the edge ofthe box that you are standing in???

as for that start, its turning into the gun(you only have to move 90 degrees to draw instead of a full 180 degrees)

[Magnus DUX]

I still don't see why crossing your feet would be illegal. Face, feet, shoulders all in line and facing uprange.

[mscott]

I still don't see why crossing your feet would be illegal. Face, feet, shoulders all in line and facing uprange.

Go try it in 10 times with your legs crossed dry fire and then try 10x it the way Zero described it. Let us know which way worked out best.

[chirpy]

The match description for the El Prez reads...

Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A, both

wrists above respective shoulders. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in

rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I don't know if your club(s) describes the match in such a way but it should to help keep "gaming" at a minimum.

To answer another part of your question...most people turn into their gun or counter clockwise for the right hand shooter. It seems easier for me to turn on the toes/ball of my left foot and plant my right as I come around. Every club that I have shot at the RO will say "You may put your hand on your weapon but you are not to draw until you are fully facing the targets. Drawing before that will be a MDQ." or something like that. Also, generally speaking RO's will not let you cross your legs or whatever.

MEFWIW

Stay safe and have fun,

Richard

[vluc]

The match description for the El Prez reads...

Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A, both

wrists above respective shoulders. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in

rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I don't know if your club(s) describes the match in such a way but it should to help keep "gaming" at a minimum.

To answer another part of your question...most people turn into their gun or counter clockwise for the right hand shooter. It seems easier for me to turn on the toes/ball of my left foot and plant my right as I come around. Every club that I have shot at the RO will say "You may put your hand on your weapon but you are not to draw until you are fully facing the targets. Drawing before that will be a MDQ." or something like that. Also, generally speaking RO's will not let you cross your legs or whatever.

MEFWIW

Stay safe and have fun,

Richard

How do you call a MDQ by drawing before "fully" facing the target? You have not broken the 180. From your description, I would be dq'd at 45 degrees.

Edited September 14, 2010 by vluc

[G-ManBart]

Lots of info on turning draws here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3673&view=findpost&p=27554

[JThompson]

The match description for the El Prez reads...

Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A, both

wrists above respective shoulders. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in

rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I don't know if your club(s) describes the match in such a way but it should to help keep "gaming" at a minimum.

To answer another part of your question...most people turn into their gun or counter clockwise for the right hand shooter. It seems easier for me to turn on the toes/ball of my left foot and plant my right as I come around. Every club that I have shot at the RO will say "You may put your hand on your weapon but you are not to draw until you are fully facing the targets. Drawing before that will be a MDQ." or something like that. Also, generally speaking RO's will not let you cross your legs or whatever.

MEFWIW

Stay safe and have fun,

Richard

Clockwise, not counter clock.

JT

You want to see how to do it fast.... Have a look at Jake on his quest for a sub 3 El Prez.

BTW way Jake, what was your first shot times when working on this? The best I do is about 1-1.2 to a popper.... just worked on it a couple weeks ago.

Edited September 14, 2010 by JThompson

[All-Gator]

Just some general comments...not on "how to do it."

Chirpy, the vast majority of shooters I've watched seem to favor turning clockwise (for right handed shooters). The usual reason they give is that turning in that direction helps them to not prematurely draw while still facing uprange. And that does seem to make sense. Personally, I turn counter-clockwise (ie, turn into the pistol) primarily because of previous tactical training. That is, you don't expose your weapon to an "opponent" behind you until you have completed your draw. (Sounds like the IDPA crowd can relate to this.)

I've practiced both directions and have never found that it made much difference in terms of time. However, I would emphasize that the most important thing is "snapping" your head around to the target. As far as the movement of the feet, it's pretty much the same as doing a military about face. So, there's a little how-to.

A-G

[chirpy]

My bad...forget everything I said and do it how the guy in the video does it.

Richard

[calishootr]

I have hadthis discussion with a number of seasoned and newbie shooters as to why they do what they do on a turn and draw, btw magnus, crossing your feet at the start wont help speed things up, anyways, forthe most part people will turn into the draw(strongside) so that they can draw 'earlier' if that makes sense, only downside, if there is one, is that it feels to me, like your backing up slightly while doing it, and thats why the 'full around' crowd does what they do, so that they have a more aggressive stance coming out of the draw and turn, sort of stepping to the targets rather than back on your heels somtimes in the other method

oh yeah...and just do what the guy in the video is doin hehehe

Edited September 14, 2010 by calishootr

[Singlestack]

I have hadthis discussion with a number of seasoned and newbie shooters as to why they do what they do on a turn and draw, btw magnus, crossing your feet at the start wont help speed things up, anyways, forthe most part people will turn into the draw(strongside) so that they can draw 'earlier' if that makes sense, only downside, if there is one, is that it feels to me, like your backing up slightly while doing it, and thats why the 'full around' crowd does what they do, so that they have a more aggressive stance coming out of the draw and turn, sort of stepping to the targets rather than back on your heels somtimes in the other method

oh yeah...and just do what the guy in the video is doin hehehe

I turn to the gun and I'm not back on my heels at all.

[JeffWard]

This guy better see his gunsmith, I think his gun is doubling on him....

Jeff

[OpenDot]

I got a DQ for this very thing 2-3 weeks ago, (Rt handed shooter) turned left instead of right and broke 180 on accident, I was right on the line of 180 though, could have went both ways. It happened on accident, didn't fire until I was downrange but the draw was right on the border of 180.

Ooooops... lol

Always turn to the side your pistol is on just to make sure.

[a.roberts]

G17G4,

Do you normally turn to the right?

[JThompson]

I got a DQ for this very thing 2-3 weeks ago, (Rt handed shooter) turned left instead of right and broke 180 on accident, I was right on the line of 180 though, could have went both ways. It happened on accident, didn't fire until I was downrange but the draw was right on the border of 180.

Ooooops... lol

Always turn to the side your pistol is on just to make sure.

Truth be told, before they defined the rule, there were a lot of close calls... Thing is, when you are that fast, not only is it hard to be sure, but your body is in the way as well. I remember watching bad ass runs and a lot of them would not fly today.

JT

Edited September 15, 2010 by JThompson

[Bouttime]

I am right handed so I have a little more weight on the balls of my left foot, and on the signal I snap my head around. When

I do this seems like everything else just happens. Not as good as in the video.

[calishootr]

JT is right, days gone by, there were some really wickedly fast runs/draws, that today would have sent people packing, the thing the shooters i think miss is that the RO is on the strongside(gunhand) and slightly behind, so his viewpoint is goingto be slighty skewed from the actual shooters POV....so when i hear someone complain/gripe 'i was on the 179, i never broke the 180' i ask myself, why on earth did you ever let it go that far???

[mlmiller1]

Personally, I turn counter-clockwise (ie, turn into the pistol) primarily because of previous tactical training. That is, you don't expose your weapon to an "opponent" behind you until you have completed your draw. (Sounds like the IDPA crowd can relate to this.)

A-G

I find it sort of strange but IDPA does not allow you to turn counterclockwise (for right handed shooters), you must turn "into" the gun in that game. Kind of opposite to what you learned in tactical training.

Personally I turn counterclockwise(right handed shooter) & just slow down the draw a bit while taking the time to get a good grip. Then after the turn, out comes the gun. That is most of the time unless there is a real advantage to turning clockwise. An example would be if the targets are way off to the left when facing downrange. Then I'll turn clockwise as I don't want to turn more than 180 or so before engaging a target. This is just me, though. Work with a timer & see which works best for you while maintaining your safety rules. Use a camera or bring a friend to help spot for you.

MLM

[rvb]

IDPA does not allow you to turn counterclockwise (for right handed shooters), you must turn "into" the gun in that game.

IDPA has no such rule.

-rvb

[Corey]

turning "into" the gun seems to be:

A. safer

B. faster.

Seems like the way to go to me!

[matt2ace]

Turning towards your weak-side may not be slower, but it is riskier for a DQ. With practice, it can be just as fast as a strong-side turn, IMHO. I watched an A-level production shooter on my squad at the 2009 Nationals get DQ'd doing a weak-side turn and drawing too-soon resulting in a DQ for breaking the 180.

IMHO, learn to turn to your strong-side and practice it regularly.

BTW - I don't use CW and CCW in this reference because I am a lefty. The rest of you do it backwards from my point of view.