G17 or G22 for open gun?

[BlueOvalBruin]

I have 3 glocks, but none of them would be reasonable candidates for an open gun. I'm hoping to use my GSSF discount before I need to renew and am thinking of a Gen3 G17 RTF2 or Gen3 G22 RTF2. (Edit: I was leaning towards the RTF2 versions because I have giant hands and I think the slide serrations of the non-RTF slides are what causes the slide bite injuries). Here are my possible plans below:

G17 RTF2

Leupold Deltapoint on a SJC microdot mount

KKM gunsmith fit threaded barrel (where to buy these?)

jager or SJC comp (5 or 11 ports?)

taylor freelance extensions

or

G22 RTF2

Leupold Deltapoint on a SJC microdot mount

KKM gunsmith fit threaded barrel (where to buy these?)

jager or SJC comp

taylor freelance extensions

So I'll bet a lot of you are automatically going to say G17 because of the greater mag capacity. The issue I have is I don't currently own any 9mm guns of any type so I don't have any 9mm brass, dies, shellplates, collators, or bullets. I'm primarily a G35 guy who shoots limited major and production in .40 minor. I do have 5 9mm mags though that I can use that I bought just in case. The things I like about the 9mm is the 4 or 5 extra rounds in the mag and the bullet selection. The things I like about the .40 open is lower reloading risk, better brass life, possibility of using the 140gr bear creeks (unless this is a bad idea) and being able to use my current reloading supplies. I have a 1050 so the primer pocket swaging isn't an issue with .gov brass but I'm sure the shellholders etc. would cost more.

Would the G17 or G22 be more reliable in open? With the sight/mount I'm leaning toward the there shouldn't be anything blocking the port and the weight of the sight is off the slide. Is the mag capacity really that big of an issue? Which one would work the comp better? Do they have a different "feel"? Is there a question I should be asking but didn't?

Given the above information, which platform would likely give me a better experience in open division? Unfortunately nobody in our club runs an open glock so I can't try one out. A 2011 based open gun is not in consideration at this time, partly because of cost and partly because I shoot glocks a lot better.

Thanks.

Edited September 8, 2010 by BlueOvalBruin

[G-ManBart]

So I'll bet a lot of you are automatically going to say G17 because of the greater mag capacity. The issue I have is I don't currently own any 9mm guns of any type so I don't have any 9mm brass, dies, shellplates, collators, or bullets. I'm primarily a G35 guy who shoots limited major and production in .40 minor. I do have 5 9mm mags though that I can use that I bought just in case. The things I like about the 9mm is the 4 or 5 extra rounds in the mag and the bullet selection. The things I like about the .40 open is lower reloading risk, better brass life, possibility of using the 140gr bear creeks (unless this is a bad idea) and being able to use my current reloading supplies. I have a 1050 so the primer pocket swaging isn't an issue with .gov brass but I'm sure the shellholders etc. would cost more.

Would the G17 or G22 be more reliable in open? With the sight/mount I'm leaning toward the there shouldn't be anything blocking the port and the weight of the sight is off the slide. Is the mag capacity really that big of an issue? Which one would work the comp better? Do they have a different "feel"? Is there a question I should be asking but didn't?

Given the above information, which platform would likely give me a better experience in open division? Unfortunately nobody in our club runs an open glock so I can't try one out. A 2011 based open gun is not in consideration at this time, partly because of cost and partly because I shoot glocks a lot better.

Thanks.

Oh, I'm sure a bunch of folks will jump all over this, but there's a reason Open Glocks aren't very popular...not many of them seem to run. It can be done, but it's not always easy (not that S_I guns are always easy). The answer to most of your questions depends on how serious you are. If you're serious about being competitive, mag capacity is a big issue. I won a stage a match or two ago simply because nobody else could shoot 30 (or 31, can't recall) rounds without a reload and there just wasn't anyplace to sneak one in without slowing you down. If you just want to have fun, it's not a big deal...but lots of people who say that seem to wind up saying "well, if I didn't have to reload....".

The 9 will work the comp better...lighter bullet, slow powder, lots of gas is what you want. With a .40 you'll have to run a really light bullet, and I'm not sure how well coated bullets like the 140 you mentioned work with comps and at 1250fps or so. You may not get good results using whatever powder you're using for your Limited and Production ammo (depends on what you're using).

I don't think there's any lower "risk" to loading .40 Major for Open compared with 9 Major. .40 cases aren't as strong through the web compared with 9, and that's typically where they fail on the hot side of things. Loaded with reasonable care, either one can be completely safe, but even .40 Major with heavy bullets is getting way up there in pressure with a lot of the powders we use. R,

[Jesse Tischauser]

I would try it with your G22 first and see what you think. The reloads are a big deal when they are a big deal but more often than not everyone has to do at least one relaod one big stage.

[triplesinglestack]

I say build the 40-after you "master" the dot, and feel the mag capacity is slowing you down, buy another glock and build it 9mm.....but if it turns out you don't "dig" open. you can still use you G22 for IDPA, or anything else and sell the dot, another consideration would be the Carver comps also.

[Jman]

I did a simple search and found these. They should be helpful...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113216&st=0&p=1284430&hl=g17+open+major&fromsearch=1entry1284430

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112809&st=0&p=1280595&hl=g17+open+major&fromsearch=1entry1280595

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111445&st=0&p=1275372&hl=g17+open+major&fromsearch=1entry1275372

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110666&st=0&p=1256915&hl=g17+open+major&fromsearch=1entry1256915

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76629&st=0&p=886459&hl=g17+open+major&fromsearch=1entry886459

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70342&st=0&p=814139&hl=open+glock+major&fromsearch=1entry814139

...enjoy

[Jman]

B.O.B.

feel free to PM me on this subject. i can help.

[Flexmoney]

G17 RTF2

Leupold Deltapoint on a SJC microdot mount

KKM gunsmith fit threaded barrel (where to buy these?)

jager or SJC comp (5 or 11 ports?)

taylor freelance extensions

That is pretty much what I'd build at this point. I'm pretty sure that setup would take Gman's lunch money.

I think the Deltapoint has different attachments than other dots...so check that before you buy.

SJC sells the barrels too. He had the KKM barrels spec'd for just this purpose (I believe they even had the chambers cut/throated to Zero bullets)

I had/have an Open Glock that runs. The reason most don't, is ejection. You shouldn't have that issue with the above setup. Hopefully the Deltapoint is big enough to see. (the other mini dots...I find lacking)

[the duck of death]

Couple of thing: the off the shelf KKM 9mm barrel will give enough support for 9 major. I did have to have the barrel reamed w/their NATO reamer so OAL of 1.145 would work. Inquire about KKM's 4 port steed comp it looks good and works fine. As for a sight I've had good luck w/the Burris Fast Fire II. It has a 4 min dot that I like better than the Docter 7 min dot on my other G34 open gun. Taylor Freelance +10s will give you 27+1. I have no problem getting major velocities out of the G34s using pistol primers, MG 121IFP and HS-6 or Silhouette. I made extended recoil rods out of full length 1911 rods and slimmed them to take ISMI springs. Due to the way I do a trigger job 13lb ISMI - 3 coils works well.

I've not had a problem w/either of my G34 open guns since they have slide riding red dots.

Good luck w/the project.

[G-ManBart]

That is pretty much what I'd build at this point. I'm pretty sure that setup would take Gman's lunch money.

The setup won't, but the shooter might

Now, I didn't say they couldn't work. Come to think of it, at the HDC, one of Open shooters said to a fellow squad mate (after the last stage) "hey, that's the first time I've seen an Open Glock run 100% for an entire match". I thought about it, and I realized the same was true for me too. We then proceeded to the chrono....and he went Minor

[triplesinglestack]

G-man, was it supposed to be a nine major gun? that mwent minor, I have also noticed that all teh glocks trying for 9mmm Maj don't run 100 % which is one of the many reasons the "op" gets my vote for 40.....

J

[Mustang684]

Most of the Open guys here in Maine are running Sjc modified G17s. I am experimenting with .40 instead and built a G24c upper and CCF lower. Time will tell how it works out but recoil is very mild with the stainless frame. Everyone has also told me that the mag capacity will kill me competitvely. But at Area7 this year the biggest stages were +30 rounds so even the 9mm open guys were changing mags. Just my .02.

[BlueOvalBruin]

What is it about 9mm open glocks (or .40 open also) that gives them trouble? Is it the heavier slides, ejection clearances, relatively high recoil spring weights (most glock folks use a 13lb spring where 2011 open guys use 9-11lb springs)?

[G-ManBart]

G-man, was it supposed to be a nine major gun? that mwent minor, I have also noticed that all teh glocks trying for 9mmm Maj don't run 100 % which is one of the many reasons the "op" gets my vote for 40.....

J

Yeah, it was supposed to be 9 Major and went Minor. He said his load normally ran 167-168PF...and he wound up at 164.6 or something like that. It was a 300+ round match and that gun ran like a top, so whoever built it knew their stuff. R,

[Yardbird]

G17, Jager kit with Lone Wolf barrel, 15# spring runs 100%.

[98sr20ve]

What is it about 9mm open glocks (or .40 open also) that gives them trouble? Is it the heavier slides, ejection clearances, relatively high recoil spring weights (most glock folks use a 13lb spring where 2011 open guys use 9-11lb springs)?

I don't know if they are running a slide mounted or frame mounted optic. But my minor gun runs a 15lb spring. Can't imagine why the Major gun would need a lighter spring then me. Unless the slide is really heavy with optic.

[Doug S]

Earlier this year I built a Gen 4 G17 opengun with: LW barrel, Carver Major comp, LW 13lb spring and guide rod, CCF enhanced slide, Glockworx trigger system and a slide mounted STS. The gun ran great with both major and minor loads. My minor loads run about a 135 PF and major around 168-170. I have since started to part it out, my new Dawson STI Steel Master came in! But, my son shoots an SJC G17 open and it runs all the time also. My shooting buddy shoots a G35 open and he seams to have to change out his recoil spring assy alot more often. He is still using factory assemblies and has had some problems until he puts in new ones. I think if he would switch to an un-captured spring system, his would run all the time also. All 3 of us were using slide mounted optics.

If you have a chance to see one at a match, ask the owner if he would mind if you tried it. Then you could see if you like the feel of the recoil from both calibers. Shooters are usually pretty good about letting you try thier guns if you let them know why.

Good luck and have fun with which ever one you build.

Doug

[dlee14]

There are ways to get most anything to "run"; but after having tried compensated Glocks and all the other guns, I came to the conclusion that the Glock format is not ideal for compensators. The main reason is the "double action" portion of the trigger where the striker is semi-cocked when the slide goes back into battery. That tension of the striker against the slide means that the recoil spring cannot be reasonably below 13 pounds otherwise as the trigger is pulled, causing additional rearward tension on the striker and slide, the slide will want to (and sometimes does) come out of battery. In the best scenario, the disconnect will not active the striker, but in the other scenario, the striker is activated as the slide comes out of battery and the gun fires with the cartridge coming out of the chamber. This has happened and it is safe nor good. If you want to test it out, point a unloaded gun upwards, and slowly pull the trigger. The weight of the slide, combined with the additional rearward tension of the striker, will cause the slide to fall out of batter.

If you must use a Glock, and must compensate it, then use a 13+ pound spring and "detune" the compensator or load until the gun functions properly. But if you want the best compensated gun, then start with the CZ variants or 1911 variants.

[Jman]

There are ways to get most anything to "run"; but after having tried compensated Glocks and all the other guns, I came to the conclusion that the Glock format is not ideal for compensators. The main reason is the "double action" portion of the trigger where the striker is semi-cocked when the slide goes back into battery. That tension of the striker against the slide means that the recoil spring cannot be reasonably below 13 pounds otherwise as the trigger is pulled, causing additional rearward tension on the striker and slide, the slide will want to (and sometimes does) come out of battery. In the best scenario, the disconnect will not active the striker, but in the other scenario, the striker is activated as the slide comes out of battery and the gun fires with the cartridge coming out of the chamber. This has happened and it is safe nor good. If you want to test it out, point a unloaded gun upwards, and slowly pull the trigger. The weight of the slide, combined with the additional rearward tension of the striker, will cause the slide to fall out of batter.

If you must use a Glock, and must compensate it, then use a 13+ pound spring and "detune" the compensator or load until the gun functions properly. But if you want the best compensated gun, then start with the CZ variants or 1911 variants.

Not sure I follow your explanation. No gun, without proper spring tension and load can be expected to run, compensated or not. So, if you are stating that if your gun is tuned correctly it will run, and we would be in total agreement. Am I close?

[dlee14]

Sorry for the confusion. What I tried to say was that a compensated, and properly tuned and reliable, Glock will not be as soft nor as flat of a shooter as compensated, properly tuned/reliable 1911/CZ guns. IMHO

[INGOglock34]

I hope I am not thread jacking too much but I have a Gen2 17 and 22 and wondered it made any sense to convert these to open guns? or is there just too many things different that should start with at least a Gen 3 gun.

Edited September 19, 2010 by INGOglock34

[Flexmoney]

I hope I am not thread jacking too much but I have a Gen2 17 and 22 and wondered it made any sense to convert these to open guns? or is there just too many things different that should start with at least a Gen 3 gun.

Since you will be shooting Major power factor (or just the fact the we shoot a lot), you want what is called a 3-pin model. It will have 2 pins in the locking block (not just the trigger pin...there will be an second pin their that adds strength).

I think some will gunsmith a 2-pin to make it a 3-pin.

[INGOglock34]

flexmoney, good point on the 2 pin vs 3 pin model. I checked again and my 17 is a 2 pin but the 22 if a 3 pin frame.

[Jay6]

I say you should run with the G17 as well. If you are serious about shooting open with it I would bite the bullet and send the gun off to S & J Customs to have them build it up right. If you do that I gaurantee it will run as they very much know what they are doing. Of course you can do it yourself but that is how most people get into touble and end up wasting a season trying to get their gun to shoot a full match without a hickup. I have two seasons and 20K+ rounds through my SJC G17 and it has treated me VERY well.

Some may also say that it is not the best choice for Open but it can still outshoot me and has beaten many very expensive custom steel guns.

[triplesinglestack]

so what is it that breaks on the 2 pin models? just pins? or is it something more exciting?

[INGOglock34]

ok, I have a Gen3 17 now and a Gen2 22 which are both have 2 pin for the locking block. I am wanting to order one of the jager kits Monday. Any reason to get the kit for the 20 over the 9mm? hear of people with the kits for the 9 but not much on the 40.