Montana gold 9mm 124gr. JHP Crimping issues

[tollarja]

My friend and I have recently started reloading MG. JHP and both of us have experienced problems with the case gauge and barrel checking finished rounds. On some of the bad rounds it looks like the bullet is being loaded off center. We have looked at the rounds after each station and have narrowed it down to the crimp station. My friend is using Dillon dies and I was using a Lee. I have switched to a Lee factory crimp and don't have the same problem anymore, but it shouldn't be that way. One thing I have observed is that there are some very sharp edges on the base of the JHP when compared to the MG CMJ and I notice more bullet print through on the case even on good rounds. The crimp is set to Dillon specifications. The pictures below show the asymmetrical bulge.

[tollarja]

My bad I don't know how to post pictures with my new phone.

[briansea2]

My friend and I have recently started reloading MG. JHP and both of us have experienced problems with the case gauge and barrel checking finished rounds. On some of the bad rounds it looks like the bullet is being loaded off center. We have looked at the rounds after each station and have narrowed it down to the crimp station. My friend is using Dillon dies and I was using a Lee. I have switched to a Lee factory crimp and don't have the same problem anymore, but it shouldn't be that way. One thing I have observed is that there are some very sharp edges on the base of the JHP when compared to the MG CMJ and I notice more bullet print through on the case even on good rounds. The crimp is set to Dillon specifications. The pictures below show the asymmetrical bulge.

yea I get the same thing with the 121 mg but it is not an issue for me. they work fine doesn't matter how they look in my gun for some reason. Bloody open blaster eats everything !

B

[Joshg]

Here are some pictures of the crimping issue.

The rounds are being seated properly, however are getting canted somehow in the crimping die and creating a small "hump" in the case that will cause it to fail the gauge.

We have tried various OAL and crimp changes to no avail.

[Pat Miles]

The problem you are describing can be taken care of by using a Redding Competition Bullet Seating die. Aside from the micrometer seating top the die does a first class job of seating the bullet concentrically in the brass. No more bulge on one side of the case or the other. Yes you have to spend a few more bucks but this bullet seater is worth it.

Pat

[tollarja]

We have looked at the round through every stage and the round looks fine after it is seated before crimping and then comes out bulged a little less than 50% of the time.

[Joshg]

Here's a picture of two bullets right after they are seated, after the seating die, they look to be correctly positioned.

I flipped the seating die to the hollowpoint setting and still got about 2-3 failures out of 10 rounds.

[Pat Miles]

Way interesting that the bullet is seated concentrically and then gets pushed to one side or the other during the crimping. The crimp die should only engage the cartridge to a depth of .003' or so and for it to move the bullet in that fashion and after it is seated is very strange. Methinks your friend has other things going on.

Pat

[CocoBolo]

Your issue is not specific to the bullet, I have had the same thing with sevral different bullets. I'm not 100% sure I know the cure, but when I have run into this in the past I just bell the case a bit more so that the bullet can be set a little better and the problem is gone. The FCD die has a sizing ring at the botton and it is just taking the sideways bulge out.

I would also note that this has only happened on my Dillon uisng the powder thru expander, I've never had the issue using the Hornady stand alone belling die, and never use the Hornady powder thru expander it is junk. If you are using a Dillion make sure that you have the correct retaining pin in the seat posiiton if not bad things will happen during seating.

Most of the time the barrel will eat stuff the drop check will not, I prefer to use the drop check then I know for a fact that it will eat it and it will stack in the mag well, its worked for me, I'm not looking for 99%. reliability.

Old tired worn out brass will do the same thing, but those should be few and far between.

Edited August 22, 2010 by CocoBolo

[DWFAN]

what coco said, and ill add that its happened to me when i set the crimp to tight on my Hornady seat/crimp combo die.

[njl]

I had similar problems with MG 124gr JHP and S&B brass. I don't see any mention of the brass being used. Is it all the same (sorted by headstamp) or a mix? I think my problems were a combination of S&B brass just giving me a hard time, using the wrong side of the seating die (flip yours back to the FMJ side...the SWC side isn't likely to work well) and having tightened the lock ring on the seating die while the ram was down. Always tighten the lock rings with the ram up and brass/cartridges in the dies.

[tollarja]

We both use mixed brass. Josh will have to tell you if specific brands cause more problems then another, because my factory crimping die makes all the problems disappear. I think it is just covering up the problem though.

[njl]

Another issue I've recently noticed with reloading 9mm with mixed brass: I have my powder/expander die set so it gives just enough flare with Win, FC, or Blazer brass. I've been loading some lost brass match ammo in mixed brass and found that some of them don't take any measurable flare at all. RWS in particular is odd in that it sticks pretty hard to the powder funnel, but doesn't end up with any flare. The MG 124gr JHPs won't go into them at all with hand pressure...but I found if I can get the bullet to balance on top of the RWS brass, the seater die will seat them. I half expected to find some with the brass folded down, but it didn't happen.

[Pezco]

Try a crip to .379 - .380 and see if this goes away.

[Jman]

I agree with the above comments.

You want your bullet to 'start and stay' in the belled brass. Under-belling causes the issue as described.

No brand or die type will fix poor brass prep.

[tollarja]

If anything I think we both err on the side of too much bell. I am confident that is not likely to be the problem. He is getting the competition die and the factory crimp and we will see what, if anything, will solve the problem.

[SLM]

Quick question... Are the majority of the "issue" rounds showing up in one manufactures brass? Or is it evenly distributed over different heastamps?

[Joshg]

I did a look over the brass with issues and it seems to be completely random (I.E. Federal, Winchester, RWS, S&B )

As Tollarja stated I have ordered the Redding Competition Seating Die and the Lee Factory Crimping die. I will install the seating die first to see if it was a seating issue, if it still occurs, I think we can feel confident that it is the crimping die.

Thank you all for the suggestions and help so far. We will update this thread once the cause is determined.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Joshg

[Joshg]

Hello all,

I just installed the Redding competition seating die I purchased, and it appears to have fixed it.

It looks like the issue was seating after all. I just loaded 107 chamber checked rounds with no bad ones. Thanks for all the suggestions!

[liljohnnie]

Or if you want to go completely overboard for the sake of precision seating you can try one of these.Benchrest guys swear by 'em.

L.E.Wilson

[Joshg]

Or if you want to go completely overboard for the sake of precision seating you can try one of these.Benchrest guys swear by 'em.

L.E.Wilson

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll keep that in mind if I see any more issues. I loaded 336 rounds last night, and only had 2 that fully failed chamber checking, and one of those was due to a split case. Looking good!

I also can't complain about being able change the OAL by just turning a knob

[njl]

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll keep that in mind if I see any more issues. I loaded 336 rounds last night, and only had 2 that fully failed chamber checking, and one of those was due to a split case. Looking good!

How many minutes did that take?

But seriously, if you loaded a split case, maybe you're going a little too fast?

[AzShooter]

You will love the Redding Competition Die. You will eliminate the bulged cases, your bullets will all be straight and you will see your accuracy go up. I switch to one and am totally pleased with it's performance.

[Ray_Z]

Try slowing down on the down stroke of the reloader. I had the same problem with other calibers. I found that a quick down stroke doesn't give the bullet time to center before entering the case. When I slowed down the problem went away.