Failure to activate a moving targets

[Flexmoney]

When I come back from working a major there are always a few rules that I find we probably need a reminder of...

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

[h2osport]

Just do not need to activate before shooting the scoring targets.

Randy

[coldchar]

But, as long as he engages the target and scores his hits, and the WSB does not say the target must be activated. Good to go in my eyes.

Jim

[spanky]

But, as long as he engages the target and scores his hits, and the WSB does not say the target must be activated. Good to go in my eyes.

Jim

I think you're confusing activated prior to engagement with activated. You still have to activate the target. Regardless of whether you shoot it before you activate it, it still had to be activated.

Case in point, swinger that's activated by a stomp box. Even if you can shoot the swinger you still have to activate it to get the hits.

[Flexmoney]

But, as long as he engages the target and scores his hits, and the WSB does not say the target must be activated. Good to go in my eyes.

Jim

The rule says they must be activated, the WSB need not apply.

[coldchar]

Not arguing just looking for clarification. Wish I had thought to be this questioning in class.

9.9.3 reads will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitior fails to activate.... So then assuming they get the hits, they don't count and get FTE and all associated misses from an FTE?

I have read and reread that rule and gone from interpreting that failure to activate triggered a penalty and then after reading it 20 or 30 times and then recently went in the other direction cited above that they got penalized only if they did not actually engage the target and get their hits.

Jim

[spanky]

If you shoot the mover then activate it, you get the hits (unless it is otherwise specified in the wsb to activate prior to engagement, level 1 only per 2.1.8.5.1 and 9.9.4)

If you shoot the mover and don't activate it then you don't get the hits/shoot at.

Edited July 26, 2010 by spanky

[LT45]

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available

hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

In Level II and higher matches, it's "if you can see it, you can shoot it".

So it's the course designer responsibility to set the moving targets in such a manner as to be completely unavailable "until" activated. If he fails to do so in his initial setup, the RM should catch it and have it corrected before the match begins.

[spanky]

It still needs to be activated in order to be scored (if I can be engaged prior to activation). Correct?

Edited July 26, 2010 by spanky

[coldchar]

Thanks, learned two things in the last 20 minutes. Time well spent.

Jim

[LT45]

It still needs to be activated in order to be scored (if I can be engaged prior to activation). Correct?

If it's got holes in it, I would score it.

Quoting my previous post... In a Level I match, If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating the activating mechanism.

The way I read it is... you score the target, then apply the procedural penalties.

[spanky]

9.9.3 seems pretty clean cut and without exemptions.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

Edited July 26, 2010 by spanky

[LT45]

What about 9.9.3? There are no mentions of any Level 1 exemptions, etc.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

The very next rule 9.9.4 covers the Level I exemption.

[spanky]

I believe 9.9.3 and 9.9.4 are referring to different scenarios/situations and have different "consequences" if you will.

9.9.4 refers to engagement prior to activation (meaning it is eventually activated. It is only for level 1 and only if level 1 specifies you must activate prior to engagement.

Example: Shooter Hits Swinger from around a barrel then pops the PP that would have made it swing. If there is a Level 1 exemption in the WSB then there are two procedurals. If not, score it as shot.

9.9.3 is talking about engaging without ever activating.

Example: Shooter can engage T3 that is around a wall and activated via a door (or port) and meant to be engaged through there but engages it without opening door or port. If the shooter never opens the door or port and, thus, never activates T3, even though it is engaged, shooter gets 2 Mikes and an FTE.

Edited July 26, 2010 by spanky

[spanky]

Obviously this all boils down to correct (or incorrect) stage design but the rules seem quite clear for each different scenario.

[LT45]

Obviously this all boils down to correct (or incorrect) stage design but the rules seem quite clear for each different scenario.

Bingo... give that man a prize

[Flexmoney]

Though the discussion is good, let me refocus this thread a bit.

- The issue isn't really about shooting the targets before activation.

- It's not really about the Level I exemption.

- For that matter, it's not really about stage design either.

9.9.3 is about failing to activate a moving scoring target.

[George Jones]

If the target was not activated and there are two hits on it, obviously it must have been visible prior to activation. Therefore (freestyle - if you can see it you can shoot it) the hits are valid and count. You cannot apply a penalty for FTE if there are hits on the target.

So, (unless it is a Level I match and the WSB said "don't engage it prior to activation"), the hits must count.

No penalty for not activating the PP (or whatever contraption was involved).

The underlying reason for 9.9.3 is to apply penalties for a target which was not visible prior to activation and not visible after finishing its movement (removing the disappearing target alibi provided by 9.9.2). It is not about penalizing a target which was engaged and has hits on it.

Edited July 26, 2010 by George Jones

[SmittyFL]

I think this rule handcuffs some creative stage design. I don't see the point of it. I have desinged a stage before with the sole purpose of deciding if going after a disappearing target was worth it or not based on your ability level. I thought it was a cool idea but due to this rule those that chose to leave it had to calmly walk back through the stage after they finished shooting and step on a foot activator. Just slowed things down and wasn't necessary other than to comply with this rule.

While on the subject, the Level I exemption is just silly for something like this. If you can't figure out how to hide a swinger prior to activation then you probably shouldn't be designing stages.

Edited July 26, 2010 by SmittyFL

[mildot1]

When does the opportunity to activate the target stop????

I saw this on our squad yesterday.

The shooter finished and the unload show clear command was given, Mag was removed and slide pulled back to show clear.

Shooter then moved back and activated the target.

Since the command is "if you are finished, unload and show clear" how can you now activate a mover???????

The RO came up with the range was not called clear.

I would think that it should have been a procedural

mildot

[JThompson]

I had a long paragraph written on this and deleted it. Suffice it to say that I think the rule need some revision. If there is a hole in it, you engaged it, therefore there should be no penalty for not stepping on a pad after you are done shooting. However that's not how the rule reads... if you go by the letter of the rule, you have mikes and ftes.... That's just silly when I'm looking at two hits. What's wrong with leaving a tuff C only hit on the target, OR letting them activate it and shoot the As?

Off to work... I'll be reading this one via iphone... I think it needs to be discussed in detail. Hopefully we can make some suggestions which are better than the letter we have now.

JT

[sperman]

Stage 1 at area six this year was a big field course with a bunch of steel at the end, 1 of which activated a swinger. Due to a dropped mag and a bad run, I got to the end of the stage and was out of ammo before engaging all of the steel, including the one that activated the swinger.

I think this rule was written to address the situation above. Even though the swinger was never visible, I still get 2 mikes and an FTE because I failed to activate it.

[sperman]

If the target was not activated and there are two hits on it, obviously it must have been visible prior to activation. Therefore (freestyle - if you can see it you can shoot it) the hits are valid and count. You cannot apply a penalty for FTE if there are hits on the target.

So, (unless it is a Level I match and the WSB said "don't engage it prior to activation"), the hits must count.

No penalty for not activating the PP (or whatever contraption was involved).

The underlying reason for 9.9.3 is to apply penalties for a target which was not visible prior to activation and not visible after finishing its movement (removing the disappearing target alibi provided by 9.9.2). It is not about penalizing a target which was engaged and has hits on it.

If it's not a level one match, then the stage isn't legal.

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

[George Jones]

If the target was not activated and there are two hits on it, obviously it must have been visible prior to activation. Therefore (freestyle - if you can see it you can shoot it) the hits are valid and count. You cannot apply a penalty for FTE if there are hits on the target.

So, (unless it is a Level I match and the WSB said "don't engage it prior to activation"), the hits must count.

No penalty for not activating the PP (or whatever contraption was involved).

The underlying reason for 9.9.3 is to apply penalties for a target which was not visible prior to activation and not visible after finishing its movement (removing the disappearing target alibi provided by 9.9.2). It is not about penalizing a target which was engaged and has hits on it.

If it's not a level one match, then the stage isn't legal.

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

No, not really.

The rule says "appearing" target, implying that it is not yet visible. IF it is visible, it can be engaged (before/during/after activation).

These multiple rules have evolved over the years and have resulted in some confusion because the language in one rule steps on another.... kinda. This is one of those things which I believe could/should have been addressed in the (soon to be) 2010 rulebook. Had I known......

But if you just apply each rule as written (not as assumed) it still works and Smitty can still design a stage for a Level II which has part of the target visible before activation (if it's visible, it is not "appearing").

[mhs]

When does the opportunity to activate the target stop????

I saw this on our squad yesterday.

The shooter finished and the unload show clear command was given, Mag was removed and slide pulled back to show clear.

Shooter then moved back and activated the target.

Since the command is "if you are finished, unload and show clear" how can you now activate a mover???????

The RO came up with the range was not called clear.

I would think that it should have been a procedural

mildot

COF isn't over until "Range is clear."