Chrono round is a squib/dud

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

So if we can apply VC scoring concepts, I'll take the PE from an extra shot then.

Y'all takin' my analogy WAY further than I intended!!!

[aztecdriver]

Ok -- i agree with the retested - but after further review I note the following in C2:

28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary.

It's clear that just because the match chronograph requires a initially 8 rounds - more may be required.

37 b. the final round fired over the chronograph and the power factor recalculated using the first bullet weight, and the average velocity of the three highest velocity rounds from the seven rounds fired.

It doesn't say 6 rounds, it says 7 rounds.

43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book.

Unfortunately, this stage is scored according to C2, not according to Section 9. There are no "hits" to call miss/FTE penalties upon. There is no time, just the rules in C2. The rules in C2 require 7 rounds fired across the chronograph. With the ability to collect additional ammunition, as remarked originally in the initial C2.28 - I don't see the issue with requiring the competitor to flick one more round from his belt after clearing the weapon.

I believe this to be one of those situations, as Larry said, common sense should prevail. Think about it - with Ammo that just went far enough under that six rounds to not make PF and a squib round - chances are the extra round isn't going to change the outcome all that much - furthermore the rules seem to be able to support having the opportunity to have the 7th round fired across the chrono.

How does not allowing the shooter fire the 7th round over the chronograph do anything to certify the ammo at the power factor he/she declared given the rules of C2?

[Nik Habicht]

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

The procedure written in the blue rule book states that three rounds will be fired and averaged. If those don't meet the requirements another three will be fired and the highest value from all 6 chosen and averaged. In my interpretation that makes it one string of fire, minimum of 3 rounds. If it was worded that the first three were disregarded then I could see the interpretation that there are multiple strings of fire but that's not what the rule book says.

Um, no, not quite. The procedure in the rulebook includes the following language:

From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph.

That "over the chronograph" language appears again for rounds 4-6 and again for round 7, if fired. If the bullet never flies over the chrono -- or doesn't register on either chrono -- another round must be fired.....

[mactiger]

I've seen several different scenarios at different chrono stations over the years. Guns broken and unable to fire, detectors don't pick up a round, chrono guy (or his "helper") shoots the detectors: name it, it's happened. Except, I don't think I've ever seen a squib at chrono. Good one, Bart. (It's, er, not a gift.)

In each of the cases I listed, steps were taken to make sure the chrono procedure was followed for that competitor, and that we could determine a power factor.

If I were the RM, I'd simply require another round from the competitor and fire that one after the barrel was cleared. Unless the squib passed over the sky screens and the detectors picked it up, (in which case, it's gonna count), we need to shoot the right number of rounds over the screens. That can be 6 or 7, depending on whether the competitor wants to weigh or shoot the last bullet if they are close. While chrono is treated like a stage for admin purposes--it's a place to go, and you can't skip it--it's not scored, nor are there strings. It's a procedure, and as such, needs to be completed as accurately and equitably as possible.

Troy

Edited July 13, 2010 by mactiger

[SLM]

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

The procedure written in the blue rule book states that three rounds will be fired and averaged. If those don't meet the requirements another three will be fired and the highest value from all 6 chosen and averaged. In my interpretation that makes it one string of fire, minimum of 3 rounds. If it was worded that the first three were disregarded then I could see the interpretation that there are multiple strings of fire but that's not what the rule book says.

Um, no, not quite. The procedure in the rulebook includes the following language:

From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph.

That "over the chronograph" language appears again for rounds 4-6 and again for round 7, if fired. If the bullet never flies over the chrono -- or doesn't register on either chrono -- another round must be fired.....

Sorry, I felt that the "over the chronograph" was a given so I didn't type it out. And please don't bring rounds that don't register into this. That's a totally different discussion and maybe I'm missing it but I don't see anything in the rule book about rounds not registering.

Back on topic... The language makes no difference. Fire three, fire three over the chrono... If there's one stuck in the barrel you aren't firing any. You're done. At least I am. I'm no where near desperate enough to attempt to complete a course of fire knowing full well there's a bullet stuck in my barrel. There is no provision for "If the bullet never flies over the chrono -- ... -- another round must be fired....." that I can find in the rule book. It says fire three*, average. If you're good you're done. If not fire another three* and average the best three of those six. If you're good you're done. If not weight/fire* the last one and average the best three of the seven if you elect to shoot it. Just like any other stage you earn your score, Major or Minor. If you can't complete the stage you score it as shot be it 1 round or 6. Pick the highest, add 'em up, divide by three and that's your average.

Why would you get such a massive break for getting lucky enough to grab a bad round just because it's chrono? You aren't going to get a break on any other stage if that happens and to me the rule is clear that you don't get a free ride here either.

*over the chrono

[Nik Habicht]

Perhaps you should listen to Troy.....

....or get in touch with your instructor for the RO class.....

....clearly we aren't getting through....

[G-ManBart]

I've seen several different scenarios at different chrono stations over the years. Guns broken and unable to fire, detectors don't pick up a round, chrono guy (or his "helper") shoots the detectors: name it, it's happened. Except, I don't think I've ever seen a squib at chrono. Good one, Bart. (It's, er, not a gift.)

In each of the cases I listed, steps were taken to make sure the chrono procedure was followed for that competitor, and that we could determine a power factor.

If I were the RM, I'd simply require another round from the competitor and fire that one after the barrel was cleared. Unless the squib passed over the sky screens and the detectors picked it up, (in which case, it's gonna count), we need to shoot the right number of rounds over the screens. That can be 6 or 7, depending on whether the competitor wants to weigh or shoot the last bullet if they are close. While chrono is treated like a stage for admin purposes--it's a place to go, and you can't skip it--it's not scored, nor are there strings. It's a procedure, and as such, needs to be completed as accurately and equitably as possible.

Troy

Hey Troy,

That's exactly the answer I was hoping to hear. I have to laugh at the commotion this caused (not intentional), it's just such and oddball thing and I have no idea why it popped into my head. I guess it's all those years learning to think like the bad guy or something

[SLM]

Perhaps you should listen to Troy.....

....or get in touch with your instructor for the RO class.....

....clearly we aren't getting through....

I feel the same way Nik.

I think it needs to go over Troy or my RO instructor though. The instructor for my RO class taught me to do what the rule book says, not what I want it to say and in this I feel I'm doing that 100% and you seem to feel that I'm 100% wrong. I'm good either way, right or wrong, doing what it says or something more than it says but now that this has come up and it's obvious that there are differences on how this issue would be dealt with I think something slightly more official than an internet discussion might be of use. Maybe we can at least agree on that.

[twodownzero]

So if chrono is a COF, does it start with "make ready"?

[CZinSC]

So if chrono is a COF, does it start with "make ready"?

Yes, the two majors I've been to and gone through a Chrono, when it's your turn, an RO walks you through. The Make Ready command is given, and you unholster, lock the slide back, and place the gun on the table for the Chrono guy. He takes it from there. Loads the mag in the gun, does the test firing, and when he is done, he places it back on the table ( I think, cant remember if he handed back or placed on table). The RO then gives you the ULSC, Hammer Down, Holster commands.

[sslav]

The instructor for my RO class taught me to do what the rule book says, not what I want it to say

Where in the rulebook does it say that chronograph is a course of fire? It certainly does not meed the requirements of any legal course of fire in the rulebook. It does not have a WSB. It contains none of the approved targets. It does not specify the scoring method. It does not follow the sequence of range commands for starting or completing the course of fire. Oh...and here is the minor issue of the competitor not operating the firearm. So chronograph is not a course of fire. Why would you want to apply the same rules to it as you would to a course of fire?

[twodownzero]

So if chrono is a COF, does it start with "make ready"?

Yes, the two majors I've been to and gone through a Chrono, when it's your turn, an RO walks you through. The Make Ready command is given, and you unholster, lock the slide back, and place the gun on the table for the Chrono guy. He takes it from there. Loads the mag in the gun, does the test firing, and when he is done, he places it back on the table ( I think, cant remember if he handed back or placed on table). The RO then gives you the ULSC, Hammer Down, Holster commands.

That's funny, because at A5, it wasn't anything like that. He said "go ahead and give me your gun." I did, he loaded it and shot it, and said "clear that, hammer down, and holster."

Unlike every single course of fire in the match, the range commands themselves were anything but the typical range commands. And from what I understand...it's the same guy at just about every major match.

The point I'm making is that the chrono stage is anything but a typical "course of fire."

For the record, my position on this issue is that if the 7th shot is a squib, you get whatever power factor the first six shots gave you.

that said, I "won" the chrono stage at A5, by loading/shooting ammo that hit 179 pf.

Edited July 14, 2010 by twodownzero

[Nik Habicht]

Perhaps you should listen to Troy.....

....or get in touch with your instructor for the RO class.....

....clearly we aren't getting through....

I feel the same way Nik.

I think it needs to go over Troy or my RO instructor though. The instructor for my RO class taught me to do what the rule book says, not what I want it to say and in this I feel I'm doing that 100% and you seem to feel that I'm 100% wrong. I'm good either way, right or wrong, doing what it says or something more than it says but now that this has come up and it's obvious that there are differences on how this issue would be dealt with I think something slightly more official than an internet discussion might be of use. Maybe we can at least agree on that.

I believe the RMI corps to be charged with teaching the rules -- and their current application. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally disagree with 'em -- Hi George -- but it does mean that they're the first folks I consult. They bring a vast amount of experience to the game too -- there's little they haven't encountered before.....

Not everything needs an interpretation from Amidon -- sometimes just a clarification from an instructor works....

Given this situation -- let's twist it up a little: What if instead of a squib, while firing the first round at chrono the shooter's gun breaks? He's got a spare gun -- are you declaring him as subminor? Assuming the RM approves the gun substitution, are you going to chrono the replacement gun?

How is that situation different from the shooter who reports to chrono with his replacement gun to begin with -- because his primary broke on the last shot of the previous stage?

You need at least three rounds over the chrono. If the chrono guy misses, or shoots the chrono, or it doesn't register, or there's a squib, you may need to fire more than 3. Two squibs -- you've probably got unsafe ammo.....

[Schutzenmeister]

Where in the rulebook does it say that chronograph is a course of fire? [...]

Previously answered ... Post #21

[sslav]

Where in the rulebook does it say that chronograph is a course of fire? [...]

Previously answered ... Post #21

Seems like that is the only problematic and contradictory part of the rulebook. Stage (under 6.1.2) is defined as "A separately timed and scored component of a match". Chrono is neither timed nor scored (not by any scoring methods recognized in (9.2). Furthermore considering chrono a stage runs afoul of 9.2.5 "Stage results must rank competitors within the relevant Division in descending order of individual stage points achieved, calculated to 4 decimal places."

But even if we consider classifier a stage it can not be considered a course of fire - for the reasons stated by me before. Any rules dealing with competitor equipment malfunctions apply specifically to the course of fire as initiated and terminated by the appropriate range commands.

[joecichlid]

Bart, going to share that popcorn while you watch this thread?

Joe W.