Equivalent to 147 XTP Bullet?

[bigleaf]

I'm just preparing to shoot IDPA, and got a new (to me) G34 the other day. I'd found in this forum so much good information about competitive loads (thanks, folks) that I came up with a couple of options to reload and try out. Loaded up some the other day and went shooting yesterday to see how the gun and the loads shot.

Here's what I had loaded up:

147 Hornady XTP

3.2, 3.4 and 3.6 gr. of Titegroup

1.10 COAL

Federal small primer

124 Remington FMJ

4.1 gr. Titegroup (I ran out of time to load up the 4.3 and 4.5gr. variants of this)

1.10 COAL

Federal small primer

I had a pile of the 124s, and only one box of a hundred 147 XTPs, so I loaded many more 124s than 147s. So, to get a feel for the gun before I started saving targets, I was shooting the 124s at 7 yards. It was as though I'd never shot a pistol in my life! More like buckshot than pistol shot, and everything... I mean everything... was four to twelve inches low... scattered left and right, too. It was awful. Not what anyone would call a "group", at all. I thought that I'd been sold a bad gun.

So, I loaded some more mags and shot the 124s out of my 26. I shoot really well with this 26. That was not quite as bad, but still pretty awful. I know the little gun, so I started to figure out the 124 load wasn't the best. I loaded some mags with the 147s with the 3.2 gr. loads. A locally legendary fellow who owns the range where I shoot (and a real bullseye shooter) came by and I asked him to shoot the gun for me. I was losing my confidence. Five shots in an inch group, right at point of aim. "Man! I like that gun. And I love those sights! Are they Dawsons?" says he. So, I shot again, and it was an entirely different gun. Tight, good feel, right where I pointed 'em. The 3.4s were the same accuracy and the 3.6 opened up a very little, but I'd shoot them any day. I never thought that a load could make that much difference.

All that to get to this: Obviously the 147 XTPs fly beautifully out of my 34. And, shockingly, a hundred set me back almost $22, tax and all. Is there a bullet out there that flies like the XTP that I can actually afford to load and shoot day in and day out?

[GrumpyOne]

Montana Gold. Look at their 147 JHP. Should be very close. I once paid $26 for a box of the XTP's. I love 'em, but at that price, they love them just a bit too much.

Buy in bulk, a case if you can, will save you even more.

Edited June 19, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[bigleaf]

Montana Gold. Look at their 147 JHP. Should be very close. I once paid $26 for a box of the XTP's. I love 'em, but at that price, they love them just a bit too much.

Buy in bulk, a case if you can, will save you even more.

Yeah, Hornady's proud as a Grandpa over those XTPs. If I'd made something that nice, I might be, too.

I looked at their site and couldn't find a 147 JHP in the Montana Gold... the only 147 was a complete metal jacket. Am I looking in the right place?

https://secure3.mooseweb.com/montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.tpl

[GrumpyOne]

Yep, you're looking in the right place. I don't shoot 147's, but there are alot of guys here on the forum that do. I must have been mistaken about the JHP part of it. I shoot the 115 JHP from MG in my open gun. Most of the guys seem to get pretty good accuracy from the MG CMJ, and they are good bit cheaper than XTP's. You should try them. I think MG will sell you a sample pack if you call them.

[bigleaf]

Yep, you're looking in the right place. I don't shoot 147's, but there are alot of guys here on the forum that do. I must have been mistaken about the JHP part of it. I shoot the 115 JHP from MG in my open gun. Most of the guys seem to get pretty good accuracy from the MG CMJ, and they are good bit cheaper than XTP's. You should try them. I think MG will sell you a sample pack if you call them.

A sample pack might just be the way to go.

[twodownzero]

If you are all over the paper, fancy bullets and changing your load isn't going to make any difference. It sounds to me that you need some practice.

[All-Gator]

Another brand which may meet your needs is Zero bullets. However, availability has been a recent issue.

[bigleaf]

If you are all over the paper, fancy bullets and changing your load isn't going to make any difference. It sounds to me that you need some practice.

I know it's a long post and probably too boring to read it all the way to the bottom, but changing just the bullet/load did actually make all the difference. Shots in the same holes or touching with the 147 XTPs. I was amazed. That's why I posted this. To get some real information about bullets which might work like the XTPs in those Titegroup loads. If all loads worked the same in every gun for every purpose, I don't think there'd be any need for a reloading section in these forums. "It sounds to me..." Huh. Thanks. That was helpful information.

[bigleaf]

Another brand which may meet your needs is Zero bullets. However, availability has been a recent issue.

Yeah, their site says four to six weeks. If they're the right bullets, though, that's not too long. I planned on being alive and shooting in four to six weeks, anyway!

What bullets do you reload?

[SLM]

If I were you I'd try the Montana Gold 147 CMJ's. I always liked them, and to be honest the Precision Delta 147's, when I shot Production but I think it's easier to get a small amount of the Montana Gold bullets.

[twodownzero]

If you are all over the paper, fancy bullets and changing your load isn't going to make any difference. It sounds to me that you need some practice.

I know it's a long post and probably too boring to read it all the way to the bottom, but changing just the bullet/load did actually make all the difference. Shots in the same holes or touching with the 147 XTPs. I was amazed. That's why I posted this. To get some real information about bullets which might work like the XTPs in those Titegroup loads. If all loads worked the same in every gun for every purpose, I don't think there'd be any need for a reloading section in these forums. "It sounds to me..." Huh. Thanks. That was helpful information.

I did read the post in its entirety.

Loads don't work the same in every gun for every purpose, but unless your gun isn't stabilizing the bullet, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between the accuracy of two different loads at 7 yards unless something is massively wrong with your reloading procedures.

Edited June 19, 2010 by twodownzero

[GrumpyOne]

If you are all over the paper, fancy bullets and changing your load isn't going to make any difference. It sounds to me that you need some practice.

I know it's a long post and probably too boring to read it all the way to the bottom, but changing just the bullet/load did actually make all the difference. Shots in the same holes or touching with the 147 XTPs. I was amazed. That's why I posted this. To get some real information about bullets which might work like the XTPs in those Titegroup loads. If all loads worked the same in every gun for every purpose, I don't think there'd be any need for a reloading section in these forums. "It sounds to me..." Huh. Thanks. That was helpful information.

I see that sarcasm is one of the services you offer!

I ordered 4,000 MG 115 JHP's on a Friday, they got her the next Wednesday. They came from Montana to north Florida in that amount of time. Personally, I would go with the MG's. Roze has been known to get way backed up, and sometimes it takes months, even though their website says weeks.

[bigleaf]

Well, it turned out it wasn't the bullets, exactly. This is the first (of only four) Glocks I've bought used. The rest were new. And this one is a real lesson for me.

It seems that the fellow who owned it before me wasn't an armorer, but played one on TV! He even let it slip when it arrived and I called to let him know, that he never could hit anything with it. He'd tried different connectors and springs, had it completely apart, but it was inconsistent. He hoped it'd do better for me.

So, I took it shooting, as noted above. And the difference between bullets and powder charges was hard to believe. Dry firing and racking at the house showed me something, too. Trouble going into battery, tough trigger pull, striker letting go upon reset. I made a tiny movie of it and put it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Ylg8RHU8E

So, I called Raphael at Glock, and he said to send it in. It turns out that the spring on the firing pin safety lug (that little barrel that blocks the striker from hitting the primer if the trigger's not depressed) had fallen out and was sitting sideways in it's milled-out hole in the slide. It worked sometimes, being crush-depressed, but it seems that if I'd used a lighter load, it could have fired a second or third time without my intending. Yoiks!

The folks in Smyrna replaced the trigger assembly, springs, striker safety lug, ejector, locking block, slide cover plate, and slide release. It just arrived, and the difference dry firing is fabulous. I'll get to the range in the next couple of days. I may have to modify my question concerning how different bullets perform, and the mystery of why some just shot like crap. This may be my only time in my life I can actually blame it on the gun!

Did I mention how great the folks in Smyrna are? Bright, professional, and helpful. They really want you to have a good experience.

I've learned my lesson about used guns. Complete inspection before shooting. Complete.

Next will come a question about an IDPA legal holster that'll fit a G34 with a .300" tall Dawson Precision front sight.

Edited July 23, 2010 by bigleaf

[G-ManBart]

I double checked and Montana Gold doesn't sell sample packs, so if you want to try just a few, you're better off asking here to see if someone will sell you a couple hundred.

I've found that 200 bullets fits in one of the USPO flat rate boxes easily and normally works out to $20-25 total...just depends on which bullet. I've sent plenty of folks 200 so they could try a bullet they don't have access to in small quantities. I've got MG 147CMJ, Precision Delta 147gr FMJ-TC and Zero 147gr FMJ's on hand if you're interested in a few.

While some folks might suggest changing bullets won't make a difference, that hasn't been my experience at all. Sometimes people saying things like that don't really have years and years of reloading and shooting to base such beliefs upon. Yes, some guns seemingly shoot everything about the same, but others have very definite preferences. My M&P Pro will put MG 147CMJs into 2" or less at 25yds. Switch nothing but the bullet, to Zero 147gr FMJs and the groups get two to three times as large...4.5" is about the best ever with that bullet. Zero 147gr JHPs will go into 1.25" when I do my part. Same guy, same gun, same range, same day, different bullets....huge spread in results. Sadly, there's a long wait for the one that's best in my gun! The MGs are more than good enough, and I can get them headed my way the same day if need be. R,

[edison]

to the OP: Had a similar experience, I was shooting BBI 147gr. that was grouping well. Then I bought a case BBI 130gr. and that didn't group well for me. I thought it was because the nose isn't really uniform. I upped the powder charge a little and now the bullet holes touches at 15 yards, and about the size of a business card off a rest at 25 yards.

[bigleaf]

I really should invest in a chronograph, too. Really document the changes in powders & bullet weights on group size & muzzle velocity. I guess it's like anything else you do... the deeper into it you get, the finer the point you want to put on it.

[bigleaf]

G-Man Bart was kind enough to send me a couple of hundred 147gr Montana Gold CMJs to try. He thought they might do the trick. I'll say! Though it took me some time to get them loaded and down to the range, it was worth the wait. I loaded them up in front of 3.2 and 3.4 grains of Titegroup. It'll take a little more testing to help me decide which of those two I prefer, but I can say that I'd shoot either one any day of the week. Very accurate. No pun intended, but tight groups and soft, smooth shooting. I think I'll order a thousand or two and really give them a run. Bart, you're the kind of guy that makes this place rock. Thanks so much.

[BayouSlide]

I love the Zero 147 gr JHPs and have used them successfully for years over 3.3 grs of Titegroup in my G34. Just make sure to stock up when they're available.

Very nice handling load especially when coupled with a 13# ISMI spring on a stainless guide rod (I shot USPSA and a guide rod change might not be applicable for your IDPA division, though).

Maybe I'll have to give the MG CMJs a try...I actually have a five bullet sample pack from the competitors goody bag from a recent match.

Curtis

[G-ManBart]

I love the Zero 147 gr JHPs and have used them successfully for years over 3.3 grs of Titegroup in my G34. Just make sure to stock up when they're available.

Very nice handling load especially when coupled with a 13# ISMI spring on a stainless guide rod (I shot USPSA and a guide rod change might not be applicable for your IDPA division, though).

Maybe I'll have to give the MG CMJs a try...I actually have a five bullet sample pack from the competitors goody bag from a recent match.

Curtis

Funny thing, but my M&P Pro seems to favor the Zero 147gr JHPs over everything else....but I couldn't get any. I tried Precision Delta 147gr FMJ-TCs, Zero 147gr FMJs, MG 130gr RN, Zero 125gr JHPs, and MG 147gr CMJ's. Out of all of those, the MG 147 CMJ was the best. The weird thing is that the Zero 147gr FMJs were by far the worst out of my gun Just today I finally got 3K of the Zero 147gr JHPs...so I'll be able to do some more comparisons, but I wouldn't hesitate to use the MGs at any match, big or small since I could get sub-2" groups at 25yds with them. R,