Beginning to Look Hard at Reloading

[Texas Tim]

Have done quite a bit on reading, but would like to find an internet site which explains the process properly....any ideas? For first loader the 550 Dillon looks good. Plan to shoot range 2 to 3 times a week. Seems like reloading would be cheaper, and more fun to the sport. Could use some direction in basics and press. Thanks...sorry about mutiple questions.

[Jman]

Hello Tim and welcome to the forums.

Please make your first purchase a current Reloading Manual. Speer, Sierra, Hornady and Lee all publish fine ones.

Reloading does not save you money because you end up shooting a lot more.

The 550 would make a superb choice. Buy it from Brian!

[G-ManBart]

Definitely get a good manual. I think the Lyman manual offers as much, or more, than any of the others:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/49th-edition.php

After that you can use the online info, or a Loadbooks One Cartridge/One Book series for additional data.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of a 550 for a first press. I think either a turret press or something with automatic indexing is better and safer. Almost all of the squibs or double charges I've ever seen have come out of a 550. Yes, yes, lots of people will point out the reasons why that happens, and they're right, but it doesn't change the fact that a manually indexed progressive press gives you more opportunity to mess up. For nothing but pistol reloading, I think the Square Deal B is a better starting point....you have to really, really work at it to make a mistake with one. The nice thing is after a little while, if you decide you want something bigger/better, there's always a market for good used SDBs and you won't lose much at all on it. R,

[CocoBolo]

+1 on what G-Man says, all of it. Keep in mind that a lot of these die old timers got these loaders before the auto index presses hit the market. No doubt my friend a GM can load on his 550 faster than most folks can on a 1050 just like he out shoots me with a single stack when I have an open gun, and he likes to tell the story about losing the World Shoot on the last stage to a squib, go figure. He does have a 1050 broke it after 20 rounds and its been sitting for a year, why not he has 3 SDB's.

If you are going to start why not just start out right. The SDB is a good press for pistol, later if you do rifle just get another press no law against having two.

[Croomrider]

+2 on the previous two posts! I have a 650 but have done a lot of rifle loading on it. It works great on pistol too!

Mike

[Bob DuBois]

You can do a lot more with a 550 than a Square Deal with die choices, U dies, factory crimp dies, load rifle calibers etc.

Both are good machines and if your loading for stock pistols the square deal will out run the 550 in many cases. Buy a tight chambered custom pistol and the 550 or 650 shine because of die selection. I advise the 550 or 650 with the case feeder if you can swing the funds. I'm a fan of Lee Dies but the Dillon machines are the best for the buck.

Get the manual and talk to some of the Reloader's at the match or the range.

Reloading will save you money, especially if you order supply's in volume. When you find that pet load that your pistol likes you'll never go back to the factory stuff.

[Sarge]

Get a 550 unless you are going to load tons of ammo. I shoot and reload quite a bit in my opinion but not nearly as many as I am sure some do. Seven thousand last year maybe? Probably around the same this year. The 550 can do that much with hardly any effort at all.

Funny, when I bought my 550 from BE he seemed to think it was an excellent first press.

But I'll agree with one thing. Get something and start reloading now!

[G-ManBart]

Funny, when I bought my 550 from BE he seemed to think it was an excellent first press.

Yeah, but even he probably wouldn't argue that more squibs and double charges come off of 550s. Almost every time I see someone have a squib I ask what machine they're using...invariably "oh, a 550". That's enough to worry me

[Jeff686]

I'll vote against a 'turret press' like the lee. They work, but 3 or 4 pulls per bullet gets old in a hurry. I thought mine was great, until I upgraded to an auto-index progressive. Now I hate the turret.

In fact, I gave the turret to some poor schmuck who didn't know any better (Jan).

[Jeff686]

Seriously though, go to a few shooting matches and make some friends.

Books and vidoes are helpful and informative, but seeing a few presses in-action REALLY helps the pros and cons of each one.

[JimmyZip]

Definitely get a good manual. I think the Lyman manual offers as much, or more, than any of the others:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/49th-edition.php

After that you can use the online info, or a Loadbooks One Cartridge/One Book series for additional data.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of a 550 for a first press. I think either a turret press or something with automatic indexing is better and safer. Almost all of the squibs or double charges I've ever seen have come out of a 550. Yes, yes, lots of people will point out the reasons why that happens, and they're right, but it doesn't change the fact that a manually indexed progressive press gives you more opportunity to mess up. For nothing but pistol reloading, I think the Square Deal B is a better starting point....you have to really, really work at it to make a mistake with one. The nice thing is after a little while, if you decide you want something bigger/better, there's always a market for good used SDBs and you won't lose much at all on it. R,

Sometimes I wonder if some others on this board are reading my mind when I read a post like this. I load on an SDB. I can load several hundred rounds in an hour. Saturday or Sundays, when the kids are out in the yard now, or in the pool, and now that the two older ones can yell loud enough to let me know something's up, or after they're all in bed, I go out and load up 350-400, and call it a session. That makes for about 1050 to 2000 rounds a month. I think years from now, when we hit better times or my profession changes upward, I will get a 650. Until then, I will get another SDB if I feel the need to put one of my various caliber conversions on another one to dedicate that machine. But, I can go from one caliber to another fast because I have all the toolheads for each caliber pre adjusted. Makes it a 20 minute deal if I don't have to change powder or primer size. that adds another 20 minutes max.

I do admit though that I process all my brass with Udies (.40 and 9mm) on a seperate single stage, and am waiting for my push-through .40 die in the mail now.

JZ

[recovering19A]

I'm definitely the odd man out here - I don't own a Dillon. Not only that, but mine is a single stage. Dillons are great, but the initial investment was an issue for me. I got my little single stage plus dies, manual, accessories, powder, primers, and bullets (enough of everything for 1000 rds) for about the same prices as the 550B press without anything else. The flip side is that to load 100 rds, I have to pull the hand 300 times (plus throw powder 100 times). I guess what I'm saying is that if you can afford the Dillon, go for it. You're going to pay either in money or in time.

As far as internet resources, I found YouTube to be unsurpassed. Go there and do a search for the make and model of press you're thinking about getting. You'll find half a dozen detailed, step-by-step videos of people loading on the press. In fact the first one I ever saw was with a 550B, and over about 30-45 minutes the guy walks through the set-up, the prep, and loads some rounds. I'm not saying that what the person in the video is doing is necessarily the best (or safest) way to do it - when you start loading for yourself, you'll still have to read manuals and do all the measurement. But for me, watching the videos was a great familiarization with the process.

Just some food for thought.

[Sarge]

Funny, when I bought my 550 from BE he seemed to think it was an excellent first press.

Yeah, but even he probably wouldn't argue that more squibs and double charges come off of 550s. Almost every time I see someone have a squib I ask what machine they're using...invariably "oh, a 550". That's enough to worry me

Back at ya'! I must be doing something "wrong" then. Am I paying too much attention to what I am doing when I reload? The only way the things happen that you keep referring to is inattention in my opinion. If you use the 550 enough it becomes ingrained to pull the handle then turn the plate, pull the handle then turn the plate. If you don't turn the plate then you can't put a new case in or put a bullet in place since there is already one seated. I have my press setup at the right height to visually see powder in the case.

No matter what press you reload on, if you don't pay attention to what you are doing you are setting yourself up for failure.

[GrumpyOne]

Funny, when I bought my 550 from BE he seemed to think it was an excellent first press.

Yeah, but even he probably wouldn't argue that more squibs and double charges come off of 550s. Almost every time I see someone have a squib I ask what machine they're using...invariably "oh, a 550". That's enough to worry me

Back at ya'! I must be doing something "wrong" then. Am I paying too much attention to what I am doing when I reload? The only way the things happen that you keep referring to is inattention in my opinion. If you use the 550 enough it becomes ingrained to pull the handle then turn the plate, pull the handle then turn the plate. If you don't turn the plate then you can't put a new case in or put a bullet in place since there is already one seated. I have my press setup at the right height to visually see powder in the case.

No matter what press you reload on, if you don't pay attention to what you are doing you are setting yourself up for failure.

+10,000 with Sarge. I have said over and over, that a squib or double charge can be made on any press. I personally see no way to make to make a double charge on a 550, without knowing it. Two primers can't be fit into a single case. Two heads can't be fit into a single case. Two cases can't be fit into a single station on the press. Squibs can happen when you aren't paying attention ON ANY PRESS. As as far as squibs go, to make a squib on a 550, you have to turn the plate twice without pulling the arm, or your powder hopper is empty. Loading with an empty hopper can be be done, but it is a lack of attention thing. Turning the plate twice without pulling the arm, well, duh!

I have no doubt that many a squib has been loaded on a 550, but also on a 650, 1050, LNL, etc., especially if you don't have a low powder warning buzzer. I would bet that more rounds have been loaded without primers, than without powder....

IMO, it would be easier to load a squib on a totally progressive press, like a 650 or LNL, as you no longer have to manually index the case, just adding bullet heads and cases to the machine, leading to making more ammo, faster. Trying to load as many as possible in as short of time as possible can lead to mistakes. Not saying that it will, but it could. 450 rounds an hour on my 550, for 5 years, probably around 20 to 30 THOUSAND rounds, no squibs yet (knock on wood! ). But then again, I top off my powder hopper EVERY time I load, whether I'm loading 100 or 1,000, and watch it religiously. Takes 1/10 of a second to glance up at it every 20 rounds or so.

Edited May 16, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[G-ManBart]

Back at ya'! I must be doing something "wrong" then. Am I paying too much attention to what I am doing when I reload? The only way the things happen that you keep referring to is inattention in my opinion. If you use the 550 enough it becomes ingrained to pull the handle then turn the plate, pull the handle then turn the plate. If you don't turn the plate then you can't put a new case in or put a bullet in place since there is already one seated. I have my press setup at the right height to visually see powder in the case.

No matter what press you reload on, if you don't pay attention to what you are doing you are setting yourself up for failure.

It's not about you or your track record

It's about the simple fact that auto-indexing makes it harder to have a double charge or squib. It's possible with anything, just less likely with auto-indexing. Over years and years of shooting I've seen a bunch of squibs and double charges and the overwhelming majority of them were loaded on 550s. If "experienced" reloaders have those problems with 550s it's more likely for a newbie to do so since they haven't learned all of the good habits yet....that's all. R,

[GrumpyOne]

Back at ya'! I must be doing something "wrong" then. Am I paying too much attention to what I am doing when I reload? The only way the things happen that you keep referring to is inattention in my opinion. If you use the 550 enough it becomes ingrained to pull the handle then turn the plate, pull the handle then turn the plate. If you don't turn the plate then you can't put a new case in or put a bullet in place since there is already one seated. I have my press setup at the right height to visually see powder in the case.

No matter what press you reload on, if you don't pay attention to what you are doing you are setting yourself up for failure.

It's not about you or your track record

It's about the simple fact that auto-indexing makes it harder to have a double charge or squib. It's possible with anything, just less likely with auto-indexing. Over years and years of shooting I've seen a bunch of squibs and double charges and the overwhelming majority of them were loaded on 550s. If "experienced" reloaders have those problems with 550s it's more likely for a newbie to do so since they haven't learned all of the good habits yet....that's all. R,

I'll agree with on the double charge, Bart. But a squib? Two ways to make a squib: empty powder hopper or turn the plate twice. Ok, three: don't cycle the arm the full movement. All but turning the plate twice can happen on any progressive, including a 650 or 1050. I would think that the reason you hear of more squibs on a 550 is that most people new to reloading probably start on a 550, and aren't paying attention. If they started on a 650, we'd be hearing of a bunch of squibs with 650's. Just my .02....

[G-ManBart]

+10,000 with Sarge. I have said over and over, that a squib or double charge can be made on any press. I personally see no way to make to make a double charge on a 550, without knowing it. Yet people do it all the time. Two primers can't be fit into a single case. Two heads can't be fit into a single case. Two cases can't be fit into a single station on the press. Squibs can happen when you aren't paying attention ON ANY PRESS. With auto-indexing it requires running the powder measure dry or a mechanical failure. With manually indexing those two still apply, but you can also fail to index the plate...one additional opportunity for failure. As as far as squibs go, to make a squib on a 550, you have to turn the plate twice without pulling the arm, or your powder hopper is empty. Loading with an empty hopper can be be done, but it is a lack of attention thing. Turning the plate twice without pulling the arm, well, duh!

I have no doubt that many a squib has been loaded on a 550, but also on a 650, 1050, LNL, etc., especially if you don't have a low powder warning buzzer. I would bet that more rounds have been loaded without primers, than without powder.... Do this for five years, a decade or more, ask everyone who has a squib what they loaded it on and you'll know that 650s, 1050s and LNL's are a fraction of that number compared to 550s. Who cares if a round gets loaded without a primer? It's certainly not going to hurt anything.

IMO, it would be easier to load a squib on a totally progressive press, like a 650 or LNL, as you no longer have to manually index the case, Not even remotely true. If you pull the lever, you put powder in the case just adding bullet heads and cases to the machine, leading to making more ammo, faster. Trying to load as many as possible in as short of time as possible can lead to mistakes. Not saying that it will, but it could. 450 rounds an hour on my 550, for 5 years, probably around 20 to 30 THOUSAND rounds, no squibs yet (knock on wood! ). But then again, I top off my powder hopper EVERY time I load, whether I'm loading 100 or 1,000, and watch it religiously. Takes 1/10 of a second to glance up at it every 20 rounds or so.

Trying to suggest that manually indexing is less likely to produce a squib is silly man When you pull the lever, the case gets powder. With any press you have to keep powder in the measure and you should look in each case when you place the bullet, but people don't always do that, they get distracted, index twice manually and wind up with a squib. It's a classic scenario that is way, way, way more likely manually indexed. The only way an auto-indexed press can have a squib is if you run the powder empty, or there's a mechanical failure. With manually indexed you still have those two failure modes, but you have the double indexing mode as well...depending on how you look at it, it's either 50% or 33% more chances to have a problem. R,

[G-ManBart]

Back at ya'! I must be doing something "wrong" then. Am I paying too much attention to what I am doing when I reload? The only way the things happen that you keep referring to is inattention in my opinion. If you use the 550 enough it becomes ingrained to pull the handle then turn the plate, pull the handle then turn the plate. If you don't turn the plate then you can't put a new case in or put a bullet in place since there is already one seated. I have my press setup at the right height to visually see powder in the case.

No matter what press you reload on, if you don't pay attention to what you are doing you are setting yourself up for failure.

It's not about you or your track record

It's about the simple fact that auto-indexing makes it harder to have a double charge or squib. It's possible with anything, just less likely with auto-indexing. Over years and years of shooting I've seen a bunch of squibs and double charges and the overwhelming majority of them were loaded on 550s. If "experienced" reloaders have those problems with 550s it's more likely for a newbie to do so since they haven't learned all of the good habits yet....that's all. R,

I'll agree with on the double charge, Bart. But a squib? Two ways to make a squib: empty powder hopper or turn the plate twice. Ok, three: don't cycle the arm the full movement. All but turning the plate twice can happen on any progressive, including a 650 or 1050. I would think that the reason you hear of more squibs on a 550 is that most people new to reloading probably start on a 550, and aren't paying attention. If they started on a 650, we'd be hearing of a bunch of squibs with 650's. Just my .02....

Okay, then you agree that it's less safe if you agree on the double charge. If all but turning the plate twice can happen on any progressive, it's still one failure mode on the 550 that isn't on the others....more failure modes = less foolproof/safe.

Many of the folks who I've seen have squibs or doubles from a 550 had been loading for years...and they might be even more likely since they're not as overly careful as most newbies. I only can think of one squib I've ever heard of loaded on anything but a 550...and that's a lot of years. R,

[GrumpyOne]

Back at ya'! I must be doing something "wrong" then. Am I paying too much attention to what I am doing when I reload? The only way the things happen that you keep referring to is inattention in my opinion. If you use the 550 enough it becomes ingrained to pull the handle then turn the plate, pull the handle then turn the plate. If you don't turn the plate then you can't put a new case in or put a bullet in place since there is already one seated. I have my press setup at the right height to visually see powder in the case.

No matter what press you reload on, if you don't pay attention to what you are doing you are setting yourself up for failure.

It's not about you or your track record

It's about the simple fact that auto-indexing makes it harder to have a double charge or squib. It's possible with anything, just less likely with auto-indexing. Over years and years of shooting I've seen a bunch of squibs and double charges and the overwhelming majority of them were loaded on 550s. If "experienced" reloaders have those problems with 550s it's more likely for a newbie to do so since they haven't learned all of the good habits yet....that's all. R,

I'll agree with on the double charge, Bart. But a squib? Two ways to make a squib: empty powder hopper or turn the plate twice. Ok, three: don't cycle the arm the full movement. All but turning the plate twice can happen on any progressive, including a 650 or 1050. I would think that the reason you hear of more squibs on a 550 is that most people new to reloading probably start on a 550, and aren't paying attention. If they started on a 650, we'd be hearing of a bunch of squibs with 650's. Just my .02....

Okay, then you agree that it's less safe if you agree on the double charge. If all but turning the plate twice can happen on any progressive, it's still one failure mode on the 550 that isn't on the others....more failure modes = less foolproof/safe.

Many of the folks who I've seen have squibs or doubles from a 550 had been loading for years...and they might be even more likely since they're not as overly careful as most newbies. I only can think of one squib I've ever heard of loaded on anything but a 550...and that's a lot of years. R,

But even loading a double charge on 550 isn't easy..... All I'm saying is that if you pay attention to what you are doing, then there is no issue with any of the aforementioned problems, with ANY press. It's not the press that's inherently unsafe, it's the operator. Complacency is the root of all mistakes when reloading. When we shoot, we are not complacent in our trigger finger, our 180 rule, gun handling, etc., but there is no one there to watch us when we reload, so...."I can do this quicker if I....".

In my job, our customer expects 100% conformity to standards, no matter how difficult it might be to follow those standards. After 22 years of that kind of intolerance to deviation from standards, it has become ingrained in me to follow the rules. I have let that spill over into just about everything I do, whether it's work, play or in between. While this is my personal habit, I understand that many won't have this sort of attention to detail that I have gotten. But that just proves a point, it's the operator, not the press.

[G-ManBart]

But even loading a double charge on 550 isn't easy..... All I'm saying is that if you pay attention to what you are doing, then there is no issue with any of the aforementioned problems, with ANY press. It's not the press that's inherently unsafe, it's the operator. Complacency is the root of all mistakes when reloading. When we shoot, we are not complacent in our trigger finger, our 180 rule, gun handling, etc., but there is no one there to watch us when we reload, so...."I can do this quicker if I....".

In my job, our customer expects 100% conformity to standards, no matter how difficult it might be to follow those standards. After 22 years of that kind of intolerance to deviation from standards, it has become ingrained in me to follow the rules. I have let that spill over into just about everything I do, whether it's work, play or in between. While this is my personal habit, I understand that many won't have this sort of attention to detail that I have gotten. But that just proves a point, it's the operator, not the press.

I never said it was easy, although with a 550 it really is....just pump the handle twice...presto double charge, or index it twice and bingo...squib. I just said it was easier. You can come up with all the compensatory ideas you want "I always do X" but, nothing changes the fact that it's easier to screw up with manual indexing...period, end of story.

Again, this isn't about you or your practices, it's simply about one system having more opportunity to make an error than another. Humans fail repeatedly, over time, to follow their own little safety measures, even when they do their very best to follow them. Something happens, they get slightly distracted and bingo...that's when the squib or double charge happens that very likely wouldn't have happened with an auto-indexing press.

This is like saying cars with anti-lock brakes aren't safer than cars without them. They are safer and no matter how much effort you, as a driver, do to avoid situations where that latent safety measure is needed, they still come up sometimes.

Edit to add: That's my last comment...if someone reading this doesn't believe, or wants to believe something else....knock yourself out, but if you have a squib or double charge, and I'm around, I'm going to ask what it was loaded on...

Edited May 16, 2010 by G-ManBart

[GrumpyOne]

But even loading a double charge on 550 isn't easy..... All I'm saying is that if you pay attention to what you are doing, then there is no issue with any of the aforementioned problems, with ANY press. It's not the press that's inherently unsafe, it's the operator. Complacency is the root of all mistakes when reloading. When we shoot, we are not complacent in our trigger finger, our 180 rule, gun handling, etc., but there is no one there to watch us when we reload, so...."I can do this quicker if I....".

In my job, our customer expects 100% conformity to standards, no matter how difficult it might be to follow those standards. After 22 years of that kind of intolerance to deviation from standards, it has become ingrained in me to follow the rules. I have let that spill over into just about everything I do, whether it's work, play or in between. While this is my personal habit, I understand that many won't have this sort of attention to detail that I have gotten. But that just proves a point, it's the operator, not the press.

I never said it was easy, although with a 550 it really is....just pump the handle twice...presto double charge, or index it twice and bingo...squib. I just said it was easier. You can come up with all the compensatory ideas you want "I always do X" but, nothing changes the fact that it's easier to screw up with manual indexing...period, end of story.

Again, this isn't about you or your practices, it's simply about one system having more opportunity to make an error than another. Humans fail repeatedly, over time, to follow their own little safety measures, even when they do their very best to follow them. Something happens, they get slightly distracted and bingo...that's when the squib or double charge happens that very likely wouldn't have happened with an auto-indexing press.

This is like saying cars with anti-lock brakes aren't safer than cars without them. They are safer and no matter how much effort you, as a driver, do to avoid situations where that latent safety measure is needed, they still come up sometimes.

Edit to add: That's my last comment...if someone reading this doesn't believe, or wants to believe something else....knock yourself out, but if you have a squib or double charge, and I'm around, I'm going to ask what it was loaded on...

My point exactly, Bart. It isn't the press, it's the operator. A loaded, cocked, off safety 1911 is as safe as can be, as long as someone doesn't pick it up. And, if they do pick it up, it's still safe, as long as the person picking it up knows the inherent dangers. Bart, do you own a 550? Load on one? Ever used one?

[Bass Ackwardz]

I usually tend to stay out of things like this, but I wanted to say that I am fairly new to reloading, and own a 550B. I chose this press because it was more versatile for me for loading the 5 pistol, and two rifle calibers I currently load for. I have had a squib with a single stage, and was really embarrassed by it. I have not had a double charge, or a squib with the 550 and think its almost tougher to do that than load properly with it. I like the fact it doesnt index with every handle stroke, it reminds me to visually check every case before I seat a bullet. To each their own I guess. I guess it just kind of irks me that people say "Dont get the 550B because its not as safe to use as the 650". It is, because it all boils down to paying attention to what you are doing, and taking responsibility for your actions. I truly believe there are some people out there that arent suited to reloading their own ammunition. They arent detail oriented enough, or dont have the time to pay attention. But again, just my opinion.

And as far as the anti-lock break comment. I dont agree. I worked as an ASE certified mechanic for over a decade, and believe that people that can drive well, and pay attention are more able to escape situations without anti-lock brakes. While I do think its a great technological advance, it basically came about because people are lazy and dont pay attention to what they are doing when they drive. Do they save lives, of course, but so does paying better attention and actually taking the time to become a good driver.

Bass

[MARKAVELI]

Im also new to the reloading, and you all have made good points. I think when I get paid my choice will be the 550B! thanks all

[Jman]

Here is a link to a very nice site for those new to reloading. http://ultimatereloader.com/

His "Info Center" on the left side of the page should prove to be very beneficial.

Take a look see.

[G-ManBart]

My point exactly, Bart. It isn't the press, it's the operator. A loaded, cocked, off safety 1911 is as safe as can be, as long as someone doesn't pick it up. And, if they do pick it up, it's still safe, as long as the person picking it up knows the inherent dangers. Bart, do you own a 550? Load on one? Yes. Ever used one?

I don't really want to comment any longer, but I don't like ignoring questions.

I don't think that can be your point at all. Thumb safeties on a 1911 aren't even remotely the same....they're manual and need thought/effort to use. Auto-indexing is like anti-lock breaks...they work without thought or user input and they can save you when the human factor comes into play and you make a mistake.

You can debate it all you want, but manual indexing has an additional failure mode that auto-indexing doesn't. That makes it less safe...not "unsafe"...but less safe. R,

Edit to add: To avoid any confusion, Grumpy and I really aren't "fighting" or anything remotely like that...we get along quite well and have talked back and forth via PM on the subject (and others over time) to discuss it as it's sort of interesting. Here it's a very small part of the overall picture that we disagree about, and not the important part

Edited May 20, 2010 by G-ManBart